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jAkUp
08-12-05, 08:57 PM
http://www.amdzone.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=169&page=1

Very interesting.
And for a physics card... slower in some cases??!!

Bad_Boy
08-12-05, 09:21 PM
yeah i saw it live on qctv, it was pretty interesting.

Nv40
08-12-05, 11:16 PM
is always interesting to listen what he says...
However is interesting that JC and TIm sweeney have opposite views about the physics card and Xbox2 vs Ps3.

according to TIM Sweeney PS3 > xbox2 in performance..in the games engine. Carmacks seems to believe the other way. TW liked the multicore while JC have been againts it. JC find physics cards not very usefull ,while TS loves it. :)

It seems to me that JC is a way off .. or simply wrong.. when he says..


Switching back to Sony he believes they have made a mistake in believing that graphics have gone far enough, and that AI and physics should be the focus. He believes that in gaming AI and physics have been cutting edge, but graphically he can still not do what he wants to improve the gameplay experience. He does not expect improved physics to improve gameplay..

JC doesnt believe physics and AI will make a big diference as much as graphics.. :rolleyes: .. .Just remember that he was againts any thing beyond very basic stuff when it comes to physics and AI in doom3 . most reviews that gave a poor score to Doom3 is for the lack of inovation in its gameplay. Hl2 proved he was wrong.. imagine if valve listened him ,Hl2 without a gravity gun , without physics.. just simply ragdolls .. just legacy shooting gallery ..its not coincidence that now most latest games use either HAvok or a native complex physics in their game . While im more a graphics guy AI is also very important in gameplay in some games.. a game with Bad AI can ruin completely its gameplay.. specially those games that realism in combat (that bots behaves like real humans) is very important. curently very advanced AI is one of the features that STAlker developers are more proud about their game.. and looking forward for it.. to see if it is as good as they claim . completely NON-linear gameplay where u never replay the game the same way.. :)

oldsk00l
08-12-05, 11:47 PM
He's not "wrong" he's just JC.

Although lately he seems to be a bit behind the curve, it's the same ol same ol. This stuff is not new.

Nv40
08-13-05, 12:42 AM
He's not "wrong" he's just JC.

Although lately he seems to be a bit behind the curve, it's the same ol same ol. This stuff is not new.


he is a mile behind the curve.. i would say.. when it comes to gameplay.

He doesnt believe better physics will have a big impact in gameplay.. but that is perhaps because the only games he can imagine are the ones with very old gameplay like doom3 . WHere the only thing u do is to shoot an army of heavily scripted IMps .one in the front and another in the back.. :D

with a Physics card it should be possible more realistic explotions , and interactivity with the enviroments or perhaps realitics fluids like water and storms and very impressive collision effects. :)

toxikneedle
08-13-05, 12:48 AM
is always interesting to listen what he says...
However is interesting that JC and TIm sweeney have opposite views about the physics card and Xbox2 vs Ps3.

according to TIM Sweeney PS3 > xbox2 in performance..in the games engine. Carmacks seems to believe the other way. TW liked the multicore while JC have been againts it. JC find physics cards not very usefull ,while TS loves it.
Carmack didn't say which is better for performance. He said that in reality PS3 and Xbox360 are just as powerful as today high-end PC. The only thing he praised xbox360 for is how easy it is to develop for it. He said microsoft is a software company and they understand that developing good software is more important than hardware.

nutcrackr
08-13-05, 03:32 AM
He touched on the next gen consoles, and believes today's top PC already matches them graphically, and will surpass them soon
pwned :D

ChrisRay
08-13-05, 03:49 AM
How many PC devs have said the consoles arent the be all end of video game quality? Really starts to make you wonder.

Gabrobot
08-13-05, 04:45 AM
is always interesting to listen what he says...
However is interesting that JC and TIm sweeney have opposite views about the physics card and Xbox2 vs Ps3.

according to TIM Sweeney PS3 > xbox2 in performance..in the games engine. Carmacks seems to believe the other way. TW liked the multicore while JC have been againts it. JC find physics cards not very usefull ,while TS loves it. :)

Well, let's see who can hand program advanced shaders in ASM...hmmm, I wonder who understands hardware better. :p

And JC has good reason to think that physics cards will actually slow performance down…that’s what GPUs did back when they first came out. This tech is still too new to be of much real use yet outside of doing prettier effects…it needs a few more years to refine things and dramatically increase speed.

It seems to me that JC is a way off .. or simply wrong.. when he says..

Yay, let's hear it for quotes taken out of context (although to be fair, the main blame here lies on whoever wrote that article). What Carmack said was that current hardware can't simulate physics at a level that would make a major impact on gameplay. Half Life 2 was cool and all, but it was just basic objects being thrown around...not particulary advanced stuff.

For a more accurate description of what Carmack said:
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/641/641662p4.html




JC doesnt believe physics and AI will make a big diference as much as graphics.. :rolleyes: .. .Just remember that he was againts any thing beyond very basic stuff when it comes to physics and AI in doom3 . most reviews that gave a poor score to Doom3 is for the lack of inovation in its gameplay. Hl2 proved he was wrong.. imagine if valve listened him ,Hl2 without a gravity gun , without physics.. just simply ragdolls .. just legacy shooting gallery ..its not coincidence that now most latest games use either HAvok or a native complex physics in their game . While im more a graphics guy AI is also very important in gameplay in some games.. a game with Bad AI can ruin completely its gameplay.. specially those games that realism in combat (that bots behaves like real humans) is very important. curently very advanced AI is one of the features that STAlker developers are more proud about their game.. and looking forward for it.. to see if it is as good as they claim . completely NON-linear gameplay where u never replay the game the same way.. :)

The decisions about Doom 3's AI and physics weren't a matter of what should be innovative or not, but what id wanted to do for a Doom game. They've said many times that Doom 3 was never intended to raise the bar gameplay-wise.

Carmack isn't against physics, he just doesn't think they can really add much to gameplay right now. Certainly Half Life 2 did some fun stuff with physics, but it's not really particularly deep and it can't really go beyond throwing stuff around because of hardware limitations. Carmack did underestimate the fun factor of physics right now, but he was correct as far as any real physics gameplay stuff...it's really just an eye candy feature right now for the most part.

I don't know why you think he's against AI (remember Doom 3's lack of advanced AI was not because of what they thought a modern game should have, but rather what they thought Doom 3 needed)...he's against trying to do complex AI stuff in games because the results could be done just as well via scripting. For example, you could program an advanced AI system where characters actually visually analyze what they can see and, based on that, figure out where to go, or you could have a simple waypoint system and you would get pretty much the same reaction in any practical game situation, but at 60 frames per second instead of 2. It's simply not practical, and not even necessary...Stalker's AI is no doubt scripted just like other games AI. And remember that scripting refers to dynamic programmed actions nowadays, not simple triggered actions. An Imp jumping out at you from a corner in Doom 3 is not a scripted action (it's simply a trigger in the level which plays an animation). People refer to them as scripted because it's like a movie script, but what game AI scripting actually refers to is an actual programming language that the characters AI is programmed in…all modern games with good AI do it with scripted AI.

In any case Carmack is neither id’s AI nor physics programmer, so he won’t be doing anything with it anymore than he did in Doom 3 (or Quake 3 as far as AI). That’s Jan Paul Van Waveren’s job…he did both the AI system and physics engine in Doom 3 (and the AI system is what runs the AI…it’s not the systems fault that the AI scripts are pretty basic. You could program all sorts of advanced behavior stuff with the system if you wanted to).

jolle
08-13-05, 05:56 AM
JC doesnt believe physics and AI will make a big diference as much as graphics.. :rolleyes: .. .Just remember that he was againts any thing beyond very basic stuff when it comes to physics and AI in doom3 .
Just look at this and other hardware related forums, what are people drooling over and discussing most?
Graphics in screenshots, gameplay things take a significant second place to it.
Its a bit sad, but Graphics is "first impression" and does weigh more then in for example the amiga days..
IMO they are still important features, but I think you can sell more games with good graphics over good AI or Physics (lacking good graphics).
But I think he also means is that CPU performance isnt scaling up as fast as GPU performance, and you need CPU for AI and Physics..
Dual Core will give that a boost, but then it will scale slowly again.

but currently Carmack can not nail down true performance on ATI versus Nvidia as he remained vendor neutral.
Good thing that, unlike certain other devs who prefer to advertize their bias.

kev13dd
08-13-05, 10:52 AM
And for a physics card... slower in some cases??!!

The way I read it sounds to me like he's saying "there will be so many fancy effects thrown in that your framerate will drop". All effects that you wouldn't be able to get even close to without the physics card though

What I found interesting is he said that it's easier this generation to switch between X360 and PS3. I thought that with the consoles different graphics shader structure it would be like night and day between the two, even if the CPUs use some of the same basic principals

K

0rk.p0rk
08-13-05, 10:55 AM
Too bad he didn't tell us why he made Doom 3 suck so bad.

jolle
08-13-05, 10:58 AM
Too bad he didn't tell us why he made Doom 3 suck so bad.
Why would Carmack be interested in commenting on your thoughts of the game? what makes you so special?

0rk.p0rk
08-13-05, 11:05 AM
I think the fans deserve an answer as to why he hyped up his own game to death and when it's released it can't even stand up to the original D00M.

toxikneedle
08-13-05, 11:21 AM
I think the fans deserve an answer as to why he hyped up his own game to death and when it's released it can't even stand up to the original D00M.
Wow, you make it sound like creating a classic, hit, awesome game is so simple. It's not like there's formula for doing it. And no developer is gonna come out and say their game, that they worked on for years, sucks.

jolle
08-13-05, 11:30 AM
I think the fans deserve an answer as to why he hyped up his own game to death and when it's released it can't even stand up to the original D00M.
He mainly spoke about the graphics, I think alot of hype came from gamesites and fans (and Willits, he was pretty openly excited)
I like the game nevertheless. (which is also subjective.)

Anyhow, shame there wasnt any info on the next project.
I think he mentioned, when D3 was released ,that they would prolly be demoing some of the new tech within a couple of months, that was prolly a bit optimistic..

kev13dd
08-13-05, 11:32 AM
Wow, you make it sound like creating a classic, hit, awesome game is so simple. It's not like there's formula for doing it. And no developer is gonna come out and say their game, that they worked on for years, sucks.
Especially when there are a bunch of fans for the game. It doesn't matter if you hate the game or not, cause no one forced you to buy it. I know grown 40 year old adults that bought the game and upgraded their computers just to play it. There are fans of the game, and just because you have a different opinion of the game doesn't suddenly make it the most important opinion in the world

K

Gaco
08-13-05, 11:36 AM
...and lastly:

1. JC has been out with things he'd wish done differently in the light of hindsight in several past interviews and such.

2. Despite Doom 3s weak points, I don't think JC thinks Doom 3 sucks. It would be pretty hard for him to explain "why it sucked" if he himself didn't think it sucked, right? ;)

Personally I think Doom3 was a very good game :)

angshuman
08-13-05, 11:44 AM
Too bad he didn't tell us why he made Doom 3 suck so bad.
:rofl :lol2:

Tygerwoody
08-13-05, 12:29 PM
Just like Tyson has lost his touch for boxing due to his age.... maybe Carmack has lost is touch for games?

*puts on flame suit*

jolle
08-13-05, 12:56 PM
Just like Tyson has lost his touch for boxing due to his age.... maybe Carmack has lost is touch for games?

*puts on flame suit*

He may have lost touch with the comon gamer a bit.
Judging physics to be nothing more then a novalty that doesnt add anything to a game, and in hindview looking at everyone working themselves into a frenzy over Havok2 in HL2 and how fun that is.
People tend to like novalties hehe, and IMO it CAN acctually add to a game, depending on how you implement it.

So maybe he has lost touch with gamers a bit, or he simply goes with what he likes and dont really care what everyone else thinks.
But looking at Doom III, more loose objects and shelves tipping over wouldnt really have added that much to the game, so maybe he is right in that.

kev13dd
08-13-05, 01:01 PM
EVERYONE needs to realize that the Physics he is talking about as a novalty, aren't the kinda Physics that we have today. He's not talking about HL2 style Physics, he's talking about way more complete Physics than that

K

Am_I_Evil
08-13-05, 01:12 PM
OMG!!!!1!!!111! PC G4M3ING iz teh ded!!!1!1! Xb0x 36O & Ps3 wiL b3 so muCh b3tter!!1!1!!!

:jumping:

Nv40
08-13-05, 02:58 PM
Well, let's see who can hand program advanced shaders in ASM...hmmm, I wonder who understands hardware better. :p



My vote goes for TIm Sweeney. :)

-T.S. already have their Unreal3 engine games Running in the Xbox360 and Sony PS3.
-T.S. have a lot of experience already in directx9 and OPenGL.
Carmack have never shipped a game under directx. neither done a game for the playstation1 like Epic.
-JC admits he doesnt know about AI or physics .. in the other hand T.S. have lot of experience with physics and AI.

One says it will be very dificult to make games for the PS3 while the other already have one in progress working as good as their PC version..he even told is not dificult to work with the PS3. One still doesnt have a working next generation- Dx9 only engine- while the other already is close to finish a game. So yes is not dificult to see which programmer understand better hardware :)

Assembly who knows more? not sure but Epic should know something of it , since they have already experience working with the playstation2. and now with the PS3.

however one know how to make mobile phone java games and the other doesnt.. :)

I think the diferences can be explained because one have been always focused in PC/console games while the other spend a lot of his working time lately with rockets and others things no gamer here cares.

Dont take me wrong.. both are great programmers but one is ahead in hardware and software experience for a couple of years than the other. :)

Intel17
08-13-05, 03:15 PM
My vote goes for TIm Sweeney. :)

-T.S. already have their Unreal3 engine games Running in the Xbox360 and Sony PS3.
-T.S. have a lot of experience already in directx9 and OPenGL.
Carmack have never shipped a game under directx. neither done a game for the playstation1 like Epic.
-JC admits he doesnt know about AI or physics .. in the other hand T.S. have lot of experience with physics and AI.

One says it will be very dificult to make games for the PS3 while the other already have one in progress working as good as their PC version. One still doesnt have a working next generation- Dx9 only engine- while the other already is close to finish a game. So yes is not dificult to see which programmer understand hardware :)

however one know how to make mobile phone java games and the other doesnt.. :)

Dont take me wrong.. both are great programmers but one is ahead for a couple of years ahead in experience than the other.

When Carmack was my age, he was writing complete games in assembly language. Tim Sweeney had just started to learn Pascal at this time (a high level language).

EDIT: Not to discredit Sweeney, but we're talking about 'experience' here, not skill.

Carmack's next engine was already up and running after a few months of research last year, and most everything is set up.

Doom 3's engine was fully functional in 2001. UE2 was just wrapping up.

Carmack is a graphics guy, and he is a focused man. The reason his work is outstanding is because he just focuses on graphics and doesn't try to please the whole world and doing every subsystem (heh, nobody does, nowadays).

Tim Sweeney didn't write the renderer for UE3 or do any major subsystem for that matter, he's stepped back from doing that kind of stuff and has delegated work to others.

EDIT: But he did write all of UE1, so again, not trying to discredit him, in the slightest

Tim Sweeney serves as the manager. or technical director at Epic now, doing much less coding than done before, but does a lot of research and neat things like that.

Oh, and want to know a little tidbit? Tim didn't write Unreal's original D3D renderer. It was done by an anonymous third party. Did you know that?

Also, UE3 is using a bunch of different tricks with the different shadowing algorithms, and stencils are much more general in the engine than the buffers (and you hate stencils)

Now, don't get me wrong, Tim is an extraordinary programmer, but certainly isn't 'ahead' of Carmack or anything, but, Carmack seems to have a deeper understanding of graphics, while Tim has a deeper understanding of coding in itself.

EDIT: Editied this part after careful re-thought

Nv40, are you a programmer?