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Pandora's Box
08-14-05, 08:54 AM
Article: (in german)
http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/g70_flimmern/

Discussion:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22576

article has video comparisons of AF quality on 6800 vs 7800.

Cali3350
08-14-05, 10:51 AM
The 6800 has shimmering even with HQ on.

Pandora's Box
08-14-05, 10:55 AM
yeap it does. the x800 shows no shimmering even with A.I turned on. The reason I made this thread is because nvidia has apparently accepted the shimmering and is completely ignoring it. Atleast with the x800 card you have no shimmering and excellent performance. At High Quality on the 6800 and 7800 you still have shimmering and performance takes a nose dive.

$n][pErMan
08-14-05, 11:37 AM
You know, I use 16xAF in everything and also always play using HQ mode. I have never noticed any shimmering what so ever in any of my games. So either im not looking, not sure what it looks like, or simply don;t have the problem. :p

Nv40
08-14-05, 11:52 AM
At High Quality on the 6800 and 7800 you still have shimmering and performance takes a nose dive.


your point is?

i have read that thread,,, at it shows way how to fix this.. with high quality settings and the clamp option ,is almost unnoticeable the shimering. everyone knows high quality take more performance..psss.. its higher on the IQ slider. same when u disable the shader replacements with the catalist AI. so whats ur point? with the performance comments?

A single G70 is twice as fast than the X850 in many games aplications at highest IQ , and lets not talk about SLI. i hope ur are not trying here to mix the shimmering in some games with questionable optimizations. As already pointed in the other thread in this forum ..the source of this texture behaviour is in the Game developers artist side. graphics hardware use techniques to workaround this . doesnt happens in every game , and its desingenuos to say it only happens in NVidia cards.

DOnt read german..but i think the point of 3dcenter.. is and always have been for an imposible mission . "apples vs appples" comparison in the reviews. which will be more and more imposible to do.. since ATi and Nvidia use diferent aproach for AA and AF.and there arent standars in anything anymore.. as soon one company take the lead in technology the other use shortcuts to cover their flaws. Ps2.0 vs Ps1.1 or PS3.0 vs 2.b .Just wait for the long debates about HDR int vs FP in the future with the R520 vs G70.

SH64
08-14-05, 12:16 PM
On BF2 i can see shimmering on both the 7800GTX's HQ & the X800's when A.I. is set to low.
looks like nVIDIA is degrading thier filtering quality on the HQ mode to match ATi's default IQ setting (where A.I. = low) in the benchmarks :thumbdwn:

5150 Joker
08-14-05, 01:04 PM
It's true the filtering quality for the 7800 blows. Even after I change my settings to HQ (I always clamp LOD) the shimmering in CSS doesn't go away and it's really irritating. This was a known problem a year ago with the 6800s vs X800s and I made quite a few posts about it (much to the dismay of a lot of nv fanboys) and then the issue sort of just died down since nVidia never did anything about it. Unfortunately it is now just getting worse and those videos are evident of this and a lot of top reviewers are either too incompetent or don't have the fortitude to bring this issue to light (probably in fear of losing their nVidia sample card privelages).

Pandora's Box
08-14-05, 01:19 PM
It's true the filtering quality for the 7800 blows. Even after I change my settings to HQ (I always clamp LOD) the shimmering in CSS doesn't go away and it's really irritating. This was a known problem a year ago with the 6800s vs X800s and I made quite a few posts about it (much to the dismay of a lot of nv fanboys) and then the issue sort of just died down since nVidia never did anything about it. Unfortunately it is now just getting worse and those videos are evident of this and a lot of top reviewers are either too incompetant or don't have the fortitude to bring this issue to light (probably in fear of losing their nVidia sample card privelages).


hence the point of this thread.

OWA
08-14-05, 01:31 PM
This was a known problem a year ago with the 6800s vs X800s and I made quite a few posts about it (much to the dismay of a lot of nv fanboys) and then the issue sort of just died down since nVidia never did anything about it.
It died down b/c nvidia released drivers that greatly reduced the shimmering (almost completely eliminated it) in most games. So, it basically became a non-issue not worth mentioning.

5150 Joker
08-14-05, 01:38 PM
It died down b/c nvidia released drivers that greatly reduced the shimmering (almost completely eliminated it) in most games. So, it basically became a non-issue not worth mentioning.

That's a load of B.S. If the issue was taken care of then why do I still see shimmering in games with HQ turned on? LOD clamp only serves to reduce it a little bit, it is far from an effective solution. The evidence is right in front of you, don't try to be a fanboy and deny it -- you only screw yourself and others over in the process. It's better if nVidia is pushed to address these quality differences vs. an ATi card (which renders a better image with opts on vs nvidia w/opts off) rather than try to deny the issue exists at all and give nVidia a free pass to continue reducing IQ.

OWA
08-14-05, 01:57 PM
I was addressing the timeframe you mentioned in your initial post, not what we have now. You were trying to make it seem like they ignored the issue but that isn't correct. The shimmering was bad for a while, everyone complained, they finally released drivers that almost completely eliminated it but now it's back (for whatever reason).

5150 Joker
08-14-05, 02:06 PM
I was addressing the timeframe you mentioned in your initial post, not what we have now. You were trying to make it seem like they ignored the issue but that isn't correct. The shimmering was bad for a while, everyone complained, they finally released drivers that almost completely eliminated it but now it's back (for whatever reason).

I don't think it ever disappeared in the first place, they just added a bandaid (LOD clamp). It might be more pronounced now with the 7800 and I really hope they address this with future driver updates because the shimmering is very distracting in games like CSS; I have to turn off AF and stick to trilinear just to minimize it in that game.

OWA
08-14-05, 02:25 PM
Sure it did. Just do some searching on the forum and you'll find where it got to the point where it was essentially a non-issue (not completely eliminated -- according to some, probably due to the adaptive AF algorithm -- but greatly reduced). Also, I was addressing the 6800s, specifically the 6800U. MVP 2005 was my test case since the shimmering in that one is horrible. Some of the later 6x.xx series and early 7x.xx drivers almost completely eliminated the shimmering with it. With the 77.xx driver it appears to be back (edit: on the 6800U, I haven't checked the 7800 yet).

Edit 2: Don't get me wrong though, I'd rather it be completely resolved and for good, at least when using the HQ setting.

5150 Joker
08-14-05, 02:32 PM
Sure it did. Just do some searching on the forum and you'll find where it got to the point where it was essentially a non-issue (not completely eliminated -- according to some, probably due to the adaptive AF algorithm -- but greatly reduced). Also, I was addressing the 6800s, specifically the 6800U. MVP 2005 was my test case since the shimmering in that one is horrible. Some of the later 6x.xx series and early 7x.xx drivers almost completely eliminated the shimmering with it. With the 77.xx driver it appears to be back (edit: on the 6800U, I haven't checked the 7800 yet).

Edit 2: Don't get me wrong though, I'd rather it be completely resolved and for good, at least when using the HQ setting.

My point is that the LOD clamp they added to address shimmering was never a real fix but just a bandaid for the problem. All it does is set LOD to 0 when the application calls for a negative LOD. It may be something nVidia cannot address due to the way their hardware is designed but I'm sure they can do something via software to minimize it drastically (like you claim they did in the past). They did a nice job with improving their AA so it's disappointing to see that they didn't improve their AF at the same time.

OWA
08-14-05, 02:36 PM
Just as a FYI, with the 77.xx drivers, it appears to be bad with the 6800U and the 7800GTX (testing with MVP 2005).

FraGTastiK
08-14-05, 02:42 PM
yeap it does. the x800 shows no shimmering even with A.I turned on. The reason I made this thread is because nvidia has apparently accepted the shimmering and is completely ignoring it. Atleast with the x800 card you have no shimmering and excellent performance. At High Quality on the 6800 and 7800 you still have shimmering and performance takes a nose dive.


http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=480942&postcount=52


http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=481402&postcount=64

5150 Joker
08-14-05, 02:47 PM
Just as a FYI, with the 77.xx drivers, it appears to be bad with the 6800U and the 7800GTX (testing with MVP 2005).

Interesting, from what I read on other sites it wasn't a problem with the 6800s as much as it is for the 7800. Do they look equally as bad?

Acid Rain
08-14-05, 03:26 PM
[pErMan']You know, I use 16xAF in everything and also always play using HQ mode. I have never noticed any shimmering what so ever in any of my games. So either im not looking, not sure what it looks like, or simply don;t have the problem. :pI've seen it, but it has only been a problem in Riddick, the King of Shimmering. Riddick'll shimmer on any card.

Other than that, my picky eyes haven't had any trouble with this. I don't play those quirky old shooters that people usually report this problem with, or the sports titles, though.

All the newer stuff except Riddick, and all the semi-new (UT2003 and above) look beautiful on this setup. I rarely need the clamp, but when I do, it's always an option.

Vagrant Zero
08-14-05, 05:47 PM
yeap it does. the x800 shows no shimmering even with A.I turned on. The reason I made this thread is because nvidia has apparently accepted the shimmering and is completely ignoring it. Atleast with the x800 card you have no shimmering and excellent performance. At High Quality on the 6800 and 7800 you still have shimmering and performance takes a nose dive.

I've noticed it as well. That's why my next card will be a R520, if it turns out to be everything with the chips bag.

ChrisRay
08-14-05, 06:35 PM
In my experience. And I have done some extensive testing on this. There is a slight reduction in quality at on the Geforce 7800GTX verses 6800GT in HQ mode. The Quality modes are fairly equivalent. I do have some videos regarding this. But I havent posted them yet.

JaylumX
08-14-05, 08:04 PM
The shimmering was the first thing i noticed about the 7800GTX when i got it.

particleman
08-14-05, 09:53 PM
I scoffed at ChrisRay's pleas for bringing non-angle dependant AF to ATi cards back in the 9700 days. But this never ending AF optimization war has to stop. Now that I have spent the last couple of years with angle dependant AF and never ending optimizations, I want the GF4's completely optimization free AF back. Even though it is possible to have angle dependant AF without shimmering, the amount AF quality has slid makes me long for totally optimization free AF. I mean we are CPU limited with so many games with the 7800GTX, why not bring back optimization free AF? It's sad that with every new generation of video card we get crappier AF.

Acid Rain
08-14-05, 10:59 PM
Yea, they should allow you to select unoptimized/non-angle dependant aniso in the control panel.

I too long for the amazing aniso quality of the GF4 Ti. It was so much nicer looking. I'll gladly take the performance hit.

particleman
08-14-05, 11:06 PM
I'm actually a little glad that shimmering issue has popped up and is getting some attention again. The LOD clamp helped things considerably when the 6800 was released but the problem was never completely resolved. Don't get me wrong, I'm upset that I have to put up with shimmering again now that I just got my 7800GTX, but hopefully nVidia will fix the problem entirely this time.

Pandora's Box
08-14-05, 11:14 PM
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=480942&postcount=52


http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=481402&postcount=64


Was reffering to the videos :rolleyes:

In my experience. And I have done some extensive testing on this. There is a slight reduction in quality at on the Geforce 7800GTX verses 6800GT in HQ mode. The Quality modes are fairly equivalent. I do have some videos regarding this. But I havent posted them yet.


Any eta on when you plan on releasing those videos you mensioned?