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Uttar
12-25-02, 11:10 AM
EDIT Dec. 26 : New version ( v0.31 ) available:
http://www.notforidiots.com/AAA.php
Includes bug fixes, even more jaggies and minor config file modifications

---------

Hello everyone,

After seeing how reviewers tend to sometimes use too kind examples for aliasing, which can't even show the difference between 4x and 6x, I've decided to do a small program to fix this.

It's really simple; it draws 6 moving triangles with horrible aliasing and automatically takes a screenshot ( always the same position ) for you.

Note however that it requires DX9 and DX9 drivers ( 41.80 and above ) - For information about the 41.80 detonators, please visit the Detonator Drivers forum (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=26) .

It's still a beta, but it already seems fairly good to me. Here's what I'd like to add in the future:
- Alpha Textures ( since some hardwares can't AA that right )
- Normal Textures ( to see the effect of modes including supersampling )
- Better triangle positions, having even more jaggies.

But I'd really need your feedback to know which triangles got the less jaggies according to you.

Here's the link to download it: http://www.notforidiots.com/AAA.php

If you like it, feel free to suggest it to your favorite review site :) But then again, it's still way too preliminary for them to even consider it I suppose...

Oh, and remember to read the readme! It got a lot of useful info.


Uttar

MrNasty
12-25-02, 11:17 AM
How boring. It's christmas day and this is what you are doing ?

Heres a tip uttar. Get a life ;)

Uttar
12-25-02, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by MrNasty
How boring. It's christmas day and this is what you are doing ?

Heres a tip uttar. Get a life ;)

Ah yes, I really should get a life. But then again, do you know how much it costs? Because I'd like to keep money for a GeForce FX :p


Uttar

netape
12-25-02, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by MrNasty
How boring. It's christmas day and this is what you are doing ?

Heres a tip uttar. Get a life ;)

It's christmas day and this is what you are doing?

Heres a tip MrNasty. Get a life ;)

EDIT: I think that program is great, thanks Uttar! :D

Uttar
12-25-02, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by netape

EDIT: I think that program is great, thanks Uttar! :D

Thanks :) Oh, and any suggestion as to how to make it better? I'd like to find an angle which make 1600x1200 4X AA look bad, but it really isn't easy :D

BTW, I found an interesting thing with the 41.80 drivers.
If you enable Mode 6, the driver panel actually says it's 6xS ( even though you can't choose it ) and if you enable Mode 7, it says it's 8xS.
The most interesting part of it? It also says 8xS is Direct3D only.
And since 8x on the GFFX also works for OpenGL, Mode 7 *isn't* the 8x of the GFFX.


Uttar

imtim83
12-25-02, 04:15 PM
Uttar is not the only one that has no life mostly.

jAkUp
12-25-02, 04:34 PM
hey, i have a family, a job, a gf... and im here on christmas day:(

imtim83
12-25-02, 04:41 PM
jAkUp ok. Well i have a family but don't want one of my own and i have a job. But i don't want a gf ever forever. (No i do not want a bf either. I am just saying that so no one comes back in a post saying that if you don't want a gf then what do you want. The answer is i want nothing. I don't like anything in that way. Nothing.) And no i do not want to get married or have kids either forever. There are more reasons than i could list.

Uttar by the way nice program. Good job!

Happy Holidays Everyone!

Mod
12-25-02, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
Hello everyone,

After seeing how reviewers tend to sometimes use too kind examples for aliasing, which can't even show the difference between 4x and 6x, I've decided to do a small program to fix this.



What library must I use to do this kind of anti aliasing ? Where can I get it ? (post the link) Where can I find information about programing on this AA modes ? (post links)

Thanks ! :)

Cotita
12-25-02, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Uttar

BTW, I found an interesting thing with the 41.80 drivers.
If you enable Mode 6, the driver panel actually says it's 6xS ( even though you can't choose it ) and if you enable Mode 7, it says it's 8xS.
The most interesting part of it? It also says 8xS is Direct3D only.
And since 8x on the GFFX also works for OpenGL, Mode 7 *isn't* the 8x of the GFFX.
Uttar

your program works great. You can really see the differences between various AA modes.
I can't make mode 6/7 work on my ti200 (looks like 4x), haven't checked it they work on the ti4600 yet

Uttar
12-26-02, 02:56 AM
Mod: Err, which AA modes? Seeing the part of my post you quoted, I really can't figure out what you mean...
In case I wasn't sufficently clear, this program doesn't do any software antialiasing. All it does is drawing horribly aliased triangles, which can be treated by hardware AA.
So, the program got no direct relation with AA ( DX9 AA system is complete crap, IMO; you can't force Quincunx, 4xS, ... ) - you've got to activate it in the control panel to see the effect with the moving triangles and in the screenshot.


EDIT: BTW, here's some more interesting thingies.
This program doesn't show the advantages of QCX, probably because the triangles are not near each other ( I may want to try to fix that in future versions )
4x on my Ti4200 barely looks better than 2x. That could be because 2x is not ordered while 4x is ordered.
No matter what, it isn't worth the performance cost to go from 2x to 4x. Maybe it's because my triangles are too agressive and can't stand ordered.
*However*, when I tried 4xS... WOW. They didn't only add SuperSampling. 4xS doesn't seem ordered at all to me. The result is significantly better.
Everything is really smooth. The difference with 4x is *amazing*
I may have to do further investigations there.

As for 6xS/8xS, it seems awfully similar to 4x or something else. After trying it with the tube demo, it sounds like the 41.80 breaked *both* modes, even though the names are finally in the driver panel.


Uttar

Cotita
12-26-02, 03:30 AM
On my ti200 the all AA modes look progressively better. Mode 6/7 looks the same as standard 4x.

Quincunx does look better than standard 2x and very close to 4x,

The best mode is 4xs and the one that looks worst IMO is 4x9tap, cause it kind of "deforms" the triangles.

I'll compare the screenshots with my ti4600 and see if there is any difference.

imtim83
12-26-02, 03:40 AM
Uttar in games i can't notice when FSAA 2x or any modes of the 4x is enabled. The only game i can tell a little of a difference is Jedi Knight 2 i think its called. The moutains look less jaggy but thats it mostly. Maybe the top of the building too but thats it. Heck Jedi Knight 2 you can play at 1600x1200 with maximum FSAA and AF enabled and still get playable frame rates. I tried it but it looks the same to me as without any FSAA or AF except for the mountains at the very top and the building at the top. I can still see the jaggies a little even with FSAA on at 1600x1200 but if who even looks at the mountains really. I mean ok you do a little but not much sense you are trying to play the game mostly.

Uttar
12-26-02, 04:06 AM
The difference between 4x and 4xS is simply astonishing. It nearly sounds like 4x is ordered and 4xS is rotated or random or something. It was already said in the past it looks better, but I could never have supposed the difference was that amazing.

Remember, intim83, that this program uses 1024x768 by default. So, if you want to see the difference between AA modes with 1600x1200, you've got to modify ScreenInfo.cfg
And some games need more AA than others. For example, UT2K3 really benefits a lot from AA IMO.

Anyway, yep, 4x 9-tap is horrible. I suppose it's buggy.

The reason QCX looks better on your Ti200 might be that every AA mode on the GF3 is ordered. Because on my GF4, it looks exactly identical. That's strange...

Here are my screenies on a GF4 Ti4200, default resolution ( 1024x768 ) : http://www.notforidiots.com/AAScreenShots.zip

It's a quick download, only 50KB. Note that the compression is lossless; I'm using .TIF


Uttar

Kruno
12-26-02, 04:24 AM
I don't know Uther the Lightbringer.

My R300 shows no signs of aliasing whatsoever in any of the tests. :)

Uttar
12-26-02, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
I don't know Uther the Lightbringer.

My R300 shows no signs of aliasing whatsoever in any of the tests. :)

Using which AA mode?
Could you give us screenies of 2x, 4x & 6x with my program on a R300? Might be nice to see how good it looks compared to a GF4.
Remember to put them in .TIF if possible.
And remember to use the screenshot provided by the program; not one made with print screen :)


Uttar

Kruno
12-26-02, 04:40 AM
4x and 6x FSAA used. I'll get shots some other time. Watching Farscape now.

Cotita
12-26-02, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Uttar
The difference between 4x and 4xS is simply astonishing. It nearly sounds like 4x is ordered and 4xS is rotated or random or something. It was already said in the past it looks better, but I could never have supposed the difference was that amazing.

Remember, intim83, that this program uses 1024x768 by default. So, if you want to see the difference between AA modes with 1600x1200, you've got to modify ScreenInfo.cfg
And some games need more AA than others. For example, UT2K3 really benefits a lot from AA IMO.

Anyway, yep, 4x 9-tap is horrible. I suppose it's buggy.

The reason QCX looks better on your Ti200 might be that every AA mode on the GF3 is ordered. Because on my GF4, it looks exactly identical. That's strange...

Uttar


Well this shows that IQ is very subjective and can vary depending on who's watching.

For me there is a noticeable IQ increase when going from 2x to 4x, but barely noticeable from Qx to 4x, Of course using 4xs is the best of all, but has a big performance hit.

IMO UT2K3 (and most 1st/3rd person shooters) doesn't benefit at all from using anything higher than 2x AA.

Now that I've compared my ti200 screenshots to your ti4200, I can say that Qx looks somewhat better on the geforce3 (again very close to 4x), all other modes look very much the same.

Uttar
12-26-02, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Cotita
Now that I've compared my ti200 screenshots to your ti4200, I can say that Qx looks somewhat better on the geforce3 (again very close to 4x), all other modes look very much the same.

If you get the time, could you post your AA screenshots? Or you could send them to me by e-mail ( if so, I can give you my e-mail by PM )


Uttar

Cotita
12-26-02, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
If you get the time, could you post your AA screenshots? Or you could send them to me by e-mail ( if so, I can give you my e-mail by PM )


Uttar
No problemo

screenshots on their way.

Uttar
12-26-02, 12:33 PM
There, you got my e-mail now, Cotita.

Anyway, I've found a minor bug, so I'm going to release v0.3 really soon. It'll include no new features; mostly a bugfix and cleaner code ( Aww, it looks so much better now! Clean code is nearly godly, too bad I'm not so good at making my code clean ;) )


Uttar

Cotita
12-26-02, 02:08 PM
I've sent you the pics now

By the way is there a difference in IQ using D3D vs Opengl when using antialiasing?, besides the fact that you can't use 4xs in OGL

I say this because I think UT2k3 looks somewhat better when using 2xAA in OGL (and runs a bit faster) vs 2xAA D3D.

Could you make an OGL version of your program?

Uttar
12-26-02, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Cotita
I've sent you the pics now

By the way is there a difference in IQ using D3D vs Opengl when using antialiasing?, besides the fact that you can't use 4xs in OGL

I say this because I think UT2k3 looks somewhat better when using 2xAA in OGL (and runs a bit faster) vs 2xAA D3D.

Could you make an OGL version of your program?

Eh, I really don't know anything about OGL...
But I've been interested in learning a bit OGL for a while, mostly because the NV3x is exposed better with it.
And since this program is very simple, I guess I should be able to convert it to OGL as soon as I know the basics.
That might be in a few weeks or something.


About your screenshots: Didn't look a lot at them yet, but they all seem just a little bit different from mine. Did you modify the fifth value ( defaulted at 0.25 ) in the config file? Because there's a bug with that, and that's the one I'm fixing in v0.3

Basically, if it isn't 0.25, the screenshots aren't perfectly identical. You don't have to redo them; all I need is the value you used so I can get the exact same screenshot.
Oh, and thanks for sending them to rapidly :)


Uttar

Cotita
12-26-02, 05:06 PM
I modified nothing from the config file, everything is at default values

MrNasty
12-27-02, 02:37 AM
Is 4xS some sort of miracle godsend ?


Whats the performance hogging of it ?