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View Full Version : After our discussion on children being tried as adults, I'm curious...


Feanor
12-25-02, 09:45 PM
what people's reactions to this one case is. It's recounted in M. Scott Peck's book "People of the Lie" starting on page 47. There's quite a bit of description, along with some of his reactions and impressions, and what he's come to learn from the years he's been a practicing psychiatrist, since this case came to him. I'll just quote from his initial encounter with the boy in question. There's too much material to include it all below.

It was February in the middle of my first year of psyciatric training. I was working on the impatient service. Bobby, a fifteen-year-old boy, had been admitted the night before from the emergency room with a diagnosis of depression. Before seeing Bobby for the first time I read the note written in his chart by the admitting psychiatrist:

Bobby's older brother, Stuart, 16, committed suicide this past June, shooting himself in the head with his .22 caliber rifle. Bobby initially seemed to handle his only sibling's death rather well. But from the beginning of school in September, his academic performance has been poor. Once a B student, he is now failing all his courses. By Thanksgiving he had become obviously depressed. His parents, who seemed seem very concerned, tried to talk to him, but he has become more and more uncommunicative, particularly since Christmas. Although there is no previous history of antisocial behavior, yesterday Bobby stole a car by himself, crashed it (he had never driven before), and was apprehended by the police. His court date is set for March 24th. Because of his age he was released into his parents' custody, and they were advised to seek immediate psychiatric evaluation for him.

...I shook his limp hand and motioned him to sit down. "I'm Dr. Peck, Bobby," I said. "I'm going to be your doctor. How are you feeling?"

Boby did not answer. He simply sat staring at the floor.

"Did you have a good night's sleep?" I asked.

"Okay, I guess," Bobby mumbled. He started picking at a small sore on the back of his hand. I noticed that there were a number of such sores on both his forearms and hands.

..."It's a pretty scary thing to steel a car, especially when you're alone and when you're not used to driving and don't even have a driver's license. Something very strong had to be pushing you to do it. Do you know what that something was?"

No answer. I didn't really expect one. Fifteen-year-old boys who are in trouble and seeing a psychiatrist for the first time aren't likely to be very verbal--particularly when they're depressed, and Bobby was clearly very depressed. By this time I had had a chance to catch several quick glimpses of his face when he inadvertently raised his gave from the floor. It was dull, expressionless. There was no life in his eyes or mouth. It was the kind of face I had seen in the movies of concentration camp survivors or victims of natural disasters who had seen their homes destroyed and their families wiped out: dazed, apathetic, hopeless.

..."I suspect you have some very good reasons to feel sad," I told him. "I know that your brother, Stuart, committed suicide last summer. Were you close to him?"
"Yes"
"Tell me about the two of you."
"There's nothing to tell."
"His death must have made you hurt and confused," I said.

No reaction. Except that maybe he dug a little deeper into one one of the sores on his forearm. He was clearly not able to talk yet in this first session about his brother's suicide. I decided to drop the issue for the present. "How about your parents?" I asked. "What can you tell me about them?"

"They're good to me."

"That's nice. How are they good to you?"

"They drive me to scout meetings."

"Yes, that's good, I commented. "Of course that's the kind of thing parents are supposed to do when they can. How do you get along with them?"

"Okay."

"No problems?"

"Sometimes I'm mean to them."

"How do you hurt them, Bobby?" I asked.

"Like when I stole the car, that hurt them." Bobby said, not with tiumph but with a dreary, hopeless heaviness.

"Do you think maybe that's why you stole the car--to hurt them?"

"No."

"I guess you didn't want to hurt them. Can you think of any other ways you've hurt your parents?"

Boby didn't answer. After a long pause I said, "Well?"

"I just know I hurt them."

"But how do you know?" I asked.

"I don't know."

"Do they punish you?"

"No, they're good to me."

"Then how do you know you hurt them?"

"They yell at me."

Bobby was feverishly picking at his sores now and his head had drooped as far as it would go. I felt it would be best if I steered my questions to more neutral subjects. Perhaps then he would open up a bit more and we could begin developing a relationship. "Do you have any pets at home?" I asked.

"A dog."

"What kind of dog?"

"A German shepherd."

..."Do you and Inge do a lot together?"

"No."

"Do you take care of her?"

"Yes."

"But you don't seem very enthusiastic about her."

"She's my father's dog."

"Oh--but you still have to take care of her?"

"Yes."

"That doesn't seem quite fair. Does it make you angry?"

"No."

"Do you have a pet of your own?"

"No."

..."It's not long since Christmas," I said. "What5 did you get for Christmas?"

"Nothing much."

"Your parents must have given you something. What did they give you?"

"A gun."

"A gun?" I repeated stupidly.

"Yes."

"What kind of gun?" I asked slowly.

"A twenty-two."

"A twenty-two pistol?"

"No, a twenty-two riffle."

There was a long moment of slience. I felt as if I had lost my bearings. I wanted to stop the interview. I wanted to go home. Finally I pushed myself to say what had to be said. "I understand that it was with a twenty-two rifle that your brother killed himself."

"Yes."

"Was that what you asked for for Christmas?"

"No."

"What did you ask for?"

"A tennis racket."

"But you got the gun instead?"

"Yes."

"How did you feel getting the same kind of gun that your brother had?"

"Yes."

"How did you feel, getting the same kind of gun that your brother had?"

"It wasn't the same kind of gun."

I began to feel better. Maybe I was just confused. "I'm sorry," I said. "I thought they were the same kind of gun."

"It wasn't the same kind of gun," Bobby replied. "?It was the gun."

"The gun?"

"Yes."

"You mean, it was your brother's gun?" I wanted to go home very badly now.

"Yes."

"You mean your parents gave you your brother's gun for Christmas, the one he shot himself with?"

"Yes."

"How did it make you feel getting your brother's gun for Christmas? I asked.

"I don't know."

I almost regretted the question. How could he know? How could he answer such a thing? I looked at him. There had been no change in his appearance as we had talked about the gun. He had continued to pick away at his sores. Otherwise it was as if he were already dead--dull-eyed, listless, apathetic to the point of lifelessness, beyond terror.

The following day he spoke with the parents and in the end they seemed more defensive and irritated then they were concerned about their son. To concern about the Christmas present they gave, they're excuse was pretty much "we're hard working people and not educated folk like you. How the hell are we supposed to know how he would feel getting his brother's suicide weapon for Christmas?" It ended with him arranging to have Bobby live with his aunt (not to his mother's liking as she strongly disliked her sister and had disliked her) and the Dr. Peck being so repulsed by them he eventually just wanted to wrap things up and couldn't stand being in the same room with them anymore.

LORD-eX-Bu
12-25-02, 09:50 PM
too.......much.....READING!:p :D

PsychoSy
12-25-02, 10:09 PM
That is just...hideous! :eek: :eek: :eek:

poursoul
12-25-02, 10:56 PM
W....T....F!!!!????? :eek: :( :( :(

thcdru2k
12-25-02, 11:01 PM
ffs..how can parents be some ignorant. more reason people need a license to have children.

demonized
12-25-02, 11:31 PM
Since when did kids started getting guns as presents. Was Santa on drugs that x-mas. Just like thcdru2k said, those parents are ignorant. What an awful story to read on x-mas day:(

LORD-eX-Bu
12-25-02, 11:36 PM
well, my dad gave me a gun as a present, well, kinda, it is a 7.62 .63 rifle, and I am sure it has been used to take out a few baddies before, noone related tho. I never blew my brains out, never wanted to either, it just depends on the freak and its parents :p But man, to give a kid the gun that his brother killed himself with is just nuts, especially as a present, I mean, I'd start pistol whipping.:D :mad:

StealthHawk
12-26-02, 01:47 AM
i can't believe that any parents could be that stupid.

Mod
12-26-02, 02:47 AM
Was that a joke or something ? :confused: I laughed during the reading, you know, because I couldn't believe that during the reading ...

ASCI Blue
12-26-02, 03:47 AM
Mod, why be surprised? People in the world really are this stupid (the parents). When I was interning with Deschutes County Sheriffs Office I went on a number of calls to a guy who thought the entire world and god were against him. Luckly the town I was interning in was under 1000 people (911 as of 2000) so he wasn't hard to find. Talk about a nut job. There was another guy when I was interning with Redmond PD (Oregon) who was a repeat domestic violence offender. After a merry chace around Redmond the cop I was riding with caught up to him and he said that the gal he had beaten "hit herself". We got a good chuckle out of that steaming pile and arrested the ****er.

This is two people out of 180 hours I spent as an intern over a period of around 6 months (roughly 3 mos/agency @ 90 hrs). Is this story believeable? Very.

Feanor
12-26-02, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Mod
Was that a joke or something ? :confused: I laughed during the reading, you know, because I couldn't believe that during the reading ...

No it is no joke. It is a true story, well at least according to M. Scott Peck (who also wrote "The Road Less Travelled" if anyone is more familiar with that one then "People of the Lie"). He had a good deal of commentary afterwards too, well after he went through the record of his encounter with the parents too. The specifics of his conversation don't make this sound better either. They didn't even feel the slightest tinge of remourse for any of what occured. How much was ignorance and how much was...well the sub-title on the book is "The Hope for Healing Human Evil" I don't know...

It must have been a horrible case to run into having just started one's internship... A case likely to leave a lasting impression on him for the rest of his life.

Blakhart
12-26-02, 09:44 PM
All I can say is it makes me angry. This is so bad. I know stories similar to this, say like one in wich a little girl was worth only the care (full time, starting at age 6 or earlier, often being pulled from school) she gave her severely crippled/retarded brother. Sorry mates, there are two worlds at work here. One of unspeakable coldness, and the one that "normal" people live in.


In the book, it says that in the end, He will turn the hearts of the children to the parents, and the hearts of the parents towards the children.
Please let it be so.