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jAkUp
08-30-05, 01:54 AM
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9103/Gabe-Newell-Xbox-360-Makes-My-Life-Worse/

"Look, I spoke to some people at Microsoft, and as I said, I can't point to a single feature in Vista that I care about that solves problems for us at all. And I had the same conversation with the Xbox 360 guys. It's like, Xbox 360 doesn't make my life any better, and in fact, it makes it a lot worse, as you're telling me I can't count on having a hard drive."

PeterJensen
08-30-05, 02:15 AM
jesus, what a whiner.

GlowStick
08-30-05, 02:53 AM
Intresting when Valve (we love anything microsoft) even wont put up with that bs.

So hes probly right, Vista could end up giving them more headache. However, he also is probly pissed because he knows he cant do **** about it.

sytaylor
08-30-05, 03:02 AM
Vista is past the point of being easy to develop for, and is in "GET THIS THING LAUNCHED ASAP" cramming.

X360 is a different way of working, a more console way than the previous xbox (at least vanilla). Gabe is a PC guy, if he wants to adopt he can, otherwise stfu.

AthlonXP1800
08-30-05, 03:29 AM
If Newell want his life to be easy then all Valve has to do is defect to Sony and sign up for PS3 developer kits. In recently Sony interview with PS3 development manager said more and more developers signed for PS3 developer kits far more than Microsoft had on Xbox 360 developer kit every day. At the time Sony have over 16,000 PS3 developers while Microsoft have over 2,500 Xbox 360 developers, many developers found Xbox 360 very hard to program and defected to Sony PS3 and found their are much easier to program just like what Epic said about Unreal 3 engine on PS3.

Nv40
08-30-05, 04:04 AM
Im not sure.. but i have the feeling that Gabe major Pain is not the development side ,but the Economy side (steam updates,new levels,lew mods,new game content,extra sales$$ )without a harddisk. Valve wants to make a lot more money and they will want to sell you even their pets if they can online and more things.. and the only way their new model of doing business (outside PC's) that will work is if the console have a harddisk. :) Just imagine how much painfull it will be for MMORPH developers from games like WOW or EQ2. They will not be able to sell you anything online.. and perhaps neither future addons to the game. missions packs? or Mods ?Developers that make their business around Upgrades and extra game content for their games will indeed have a dificult time doing any business there. not sure however if this are the reasons for their pain.


But for Microsoft is a little more clear that they want to make the console cheaper.. and perhaps they dont like the idea of gamers modding their console to run other operating systems..(Linux,OSX) or to allow gamers to mount ISO images to play illegaly their games.. :) If they use a custom tweaked DVDrom not availlable in the PC market.. they could very easily design Cdmedia that even if it is copied will never be identical to the original.

the happy medium here could be to make the harddisk optional.. something that can be plugged on the console from any brand. and that they license a heavy weight soft-hard based copy protection to stop the piracy of their games.

Zelda_fan
08-30-05, 06:10 AM
So basically, Gabe is only complaining that the XBOX 360 dosen't have a HD?

AthlonXP1800
08-30-05, 07:03 AM
So basically, Gabe is only complaining that the XBOX 360 dosen't have a HD?

Yeah that correct, the DVD do not have enough space Gabe require a 20Gb HD to uncompress files installed from DVD. Gabe can do without a HD if he develop a game on PS3, PS3 has a Blu-ray BD-ROM, it has a massive 50Gb space. Also the PS3 support rewriteable BD-ROM that levels and updates from Steam can download and write to the disk.

Nv40
08-30-05, 07:37 AM
Yeah that correct, the DVD do not have enough space Gabe require a 20Gb HD to uncompress files installed from DVD. Gabe can do without a HD if he develop a game on PS3, PS3 has a Blu-ray BD-ROM, it has a massive 50Gb space. Also the PS3 support rewriteable BD-ROM that levels and updates from Steam can download and write to the disk.

Forgot about that one too.. :)
standar DVD's disc can only store ~5gb. and Dual layers disc are too slow and too expensive ,and in very low supply. for the practical use in a console that sell millions of titles .and Hl2 alone takes few GIGs using compression. If what you say about the 20gb is true????? .. i can imagine now why the Pain.. Lol! . hehe

They made Hl2 with Harddisk in mind with very high resolution textures. So a limitation like that could only mean they will need to Re-do *all* their in game assets ,textures.. and perhaps change many things in their engine. limitations like this can delay for years their Hl2 x360 version. perhaps it migh end be easier to start from scratch a new game. :)

|MaguS|
08-30-05, 07:38 AM
Um no the PS3 doesn't support writable BD-ROMs, including it would drive the systems cost way too high (Burners alone right now are $1K+).

Mainly his beef with the lack of HD is that the system can't cache data like the original Xbox could so everything has to be compressed and streamed off the DVD causing alot of loading depending on the size of the content. You can look at it this way, Doom 3 and HL2 would not be possible on the current Xbox if it lacked the HD.

The Xbox360 is not very hard to program for, the biggest difficulty I see is optimizing the unified pipelines and making sure to take advantage of the 3 cores. The PS3 is far more difficult but from what I have had chance to experiance there is alot more documentation included with the Dev Unit then the Xbox360s, while the unit hardware isn't as complete at the Xbox360s.

Basically Xbox360 is easier then the PS3 and more complete Dev Kit but the documentation is really lacking, Tools without a nice clear and defined information is hard to learn. Sony learned alot from the PS2 and has given programmers alot to work through (which also hurts since we have alot to look into rather then just jumping in).

Nv40
08-30-05, 08:02 AM
Um no the PS3 doesn't support writable BD-ROMs, including it would drive the systems cost way too high (Burners alone right now are $1K+).

Mainly his beef with the lack of HD is that the system can't cache data like the original Xbox could so everything has to be compressed and streamed off the DVD causing alot of loading depending on the size of the content. You can look at it this way, Doom 3 and HL2 would not be possible on the current Xbox if it lacked the HD.

The Xbox360 is not very hard to program for, the biggest difficulty I see is optimizing the unified pipelines and making sure to take advantage of the 3 cores. The PS3 is far more difficult but from what I have had chance to experiance there is alot more documentation included with the Dev Unit then the Xbox360s, while the unit hardware isn't as complete at the Xbox360s.

Basically Xbox360 is easier then the PS3 and more complete Dev Kit but the documentation is really lacking, Tools without a nice clear and defined information is hard to learn. Sony learned alot from the PS2 and has given programmers alot to work through (which also hurts since we have alot to look into rather then just jumping in).


what development kit Sony is giving to developers?
i read somewhere about Bluray writeable burners later for more the expensive versions of the PS3 .. but not sure if that was merely a rumour. Also about some "improvments" with the console specs ..like more memory.. if you know something let me know,. ;)

|MaguS|
08-30-05, 08:11 AM
Currently we have a 2.4Ghz Cell CPU Dev Kit with the RSX (Don't ask because Im under NDA). The kit included ALOT of documentation, best were that it even included examples and tutorials so its easier to learn alot of the new hardware.

From what I know there will not be any DVR version of the PS3 or upgrades planned other then a larger HD. I do not work for Sony so I can't say what they have planned but they have not told us anything remotly like that.

Mr. Hunt
08-30-05, 11:27 AM
Wow... carmack supporting a ATI based system and newell hating one?

|MaguS|
08-30-05, 02:17 PM
Good input from Japanese Developers...
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/08/30/news_6132218.html

Most interesting part of the article is at the end though...

Aside from development concerns, The Japanese creators also comment that the Xbox 360 is already reaching its hardware limit in terms of the disc capacity. While the Xbox 360 is a next-generation console, Microsoft decided to equip it with a normal DVD reader, rather than to give it HD-DVD or Blu-ray reading capabilities.

"The volume of data in Enchant Arms won't fit into a single DVD. It's an RPG, so we're thinking it would be inevitable that we release it on two discs," says Takeuchi. "But to be honest, that's even looking grim. We're not counting in the pre-rendered movies, and we're already in this situation. So we've got a bit of a headache. We're trying to come up with various solutions, such as compressing the data. The Xbox 360 allows data to be read from the hard drive, so there shouldn't be much stress when it's used [compared to playing from DVD]. The memory is another point in terms of transfer speed. The Xbox 360 comes with 512MB of main memory, which is very helpful. But on the other hand, the transfer rate from DVD-ROM is about 7MB per second at slowest. So if we go by simple calculation at that rate, it'll take 60 seconds to fill up the 512MB [when playing from DVD]."

I knew this would happen right away, Many games on the PS2 were already reaching the the limit of a DVD9 and when moving to next generation the discs would reach there capacity far more quickly due to the larger amount of data you need to achieve the higher quality graphics.

The Xbox got by this with the HD as standard, the developers could uncompress the content onto the HD and load it from there, they can't rely on this trick anymore since the HD is not standard anymore.

Rakeesh
08-30-05, 02:18 PM
If Newell want his life to be easy then all Valve has to do is defect to Sony and sign up for PS3 developer kits. In recently Sony interview with PS3 development manager said more and more developers signed for PS3 developer kits far more than Microsoft had on Xbox 360 developer kit every day. At the time Sony have over 16,000 PS3 developers while Microsoft have over 2,500 Xbox 360 developers, many developers found Xbox 360 very hard to program and defected to Sony PS3 and found their are much easier to program just like what Epic said about Unreal 3 engine on PS3.

Er...where are you getting your information from?

Yeah that correct, the DVD do not have enough space Gabe require a 20Gb HD to uncompress files installed from DVD.

Eh....huh? Since when would you need to do that on a console?

Nv40
08-30-05, 04:27 PM
Currently we have a 2.4Ghz Cell CPU Dev Kit with the RSX (Don't ask because Im under NDA). The kit included ALOT of documentation, best were that it even included examples and tutorials so its easier to learn alot of the new hardware.
.

Cool... :)
Its not the final devkit.. but it looks that is good enough for a more representative enviroment of the real thing. albeit the cpu is somewhat away from its final clocks. however seems that you have the final RSX. :)

WHat i heard is that Sony have plans to sell many things using cell technology including PersonalCimputers And that they will release a little later PS3's with many extras.. (eg.. controllers ,Rewritables blu-ray drive ..) and so on. for the people that can pay more.
Its might be dificult to say any thing if you are under NDA. But if you manage to do something that could be said and that push the console hardware to "its limits" just like the e3 demos. let us know. :)

Im a little curious about the IBM huge landscape demo ,that was running in realtime just using cell. and the leaves demo.. will be nice if the dev kits ship with those.

AthlonXP1800
08-31-05, 12:44 AM
Er...where are you getting your information from?

I read the interview with Sony Japan's PS3 development manager about 2 weeks after E3, I cant remember where the link is as it over 3 months ago

Eh....huh? Since when would you need to do that on a console?

A console dont have a hard drive as standard, the PC do have it. You can see the problems the developers had with GTA3, GTA: Vice City, GTA: San Andreas, KOTOR and Doom 3. On the PC, all these games have very high resolution textures and high quality audios were compressed on the CDs/DVD to be install on hard drive to be uncompressed. Both Xbox and PS2 has DVD and no hard drive, all these games have to be uncompressed to fit the whole DVD but cannot fit due to high resolution textures and high quality audios from the PC. The developers had to reduced the textures and audios quality to fit on DVD and the finished games will look quite good with low polygons but nothing can matched the high quality PC graphics.

GamerGuyX
08-31-05, 01:00 AM
Both Xbox and PS2 has DVD and no hard drive

What the hell are you talking about!? The original Xbox has a hard drive built in.

Rakeesh
08-31-05, 01:24 AM
I read the interview with Sony Japan's PS3 development manager about 2 weeks after E3, I cant remember where the link is as it over 3 months ago

Of course they would say that then, look at the source. This doesn't mean it is true by any means.

A console dont have a hard drive as standard, the PC do have it. You can see the problems the developers had with GTA3, GTA: Vice City, GTA: San Andreas, KOTOR and Doom 3. On the PC, all these games have very high resolution textures and high quality audios were compressed on the CDs/DVD to be install on hard drive to be uncompressed. Both Xbox and PS2 has DVD and no hard drive, all these games have to be uncompressed to fit the whole DVD but cannot fit due to high resolution textures and high quality audios from the PC. The developers had to reduced the textures and audios quality to fit on DVD and the finished games will look quite good with low polygons but nothing can matched the high quality PC graphics.

I think you're missing a lot here. Consoles by their design do not have nearly the storage requirements of PC's for their games. It would take a very long time to go into specifics, but think to the effect of why a GPU is better for graphics processing and a CPU is better for everything else. A PC is a general purpose device, and a console is meant just for games and nothing else.

The lower graphics quality you are seeing in newer console games is due to the platforms themselves being obsolete and having older hardware that doesn't come anywhere near the gaming capabilities of a current PC. It has nothing to do with storage capacity. As a matter of fact, the xbox version of GTA:SA is about 3.5 gigabytes; well below the 9.2 gigabyte limit of the max DVD capacity. Doom 3 is 4 gig, and kotor is 2 gig. They've still got a lot of room left.

And BTW, the xbox does have a hard disk in all models. It is the xbox 360 where they are considering not including it stock.

AthlonXP1800
08-31-05, 02:50 AM
The Xbox got by this with the HD as standard, the developers could uncompress the content onto the HD and load it from there, they can't rely on this trick anymore since the HD is not standard anymore.

That too bad, Microsoft will one day next year will realised that equiped with DVD-ROM because it cheaper than HD-DVD ROM will be the biggest mistake Microsoft made, they all care about reduced the cost of Xbox 360 hardware but completely forgetten about the important of highest quality graphics gaming, Microsoft really dont know much about consoles since they launched Xbox 3 years ago. When Xbox 360 will be launch in November and people will discover that many launch titles could have toned down graphics nothing like they saw at E3 and the graphics looked much the same as any Xbox games. Sony knew about consoles better than Microsoft did, they did it with Playstation , it used CD-ROM, Playstation 2 has DVD-ROM and now Playstation 3 has BD-ROM. Sony knew that in every generation, the textures getting bigger and better quality, they knew if they wanted movie quality graphics, they will need a new media format big enough to put the whole game on BD-ROM. Microsoft definetely need HD-DVD with Xbox 360 as standard, it will have transfer rate of 36.5Mb p/s, that will take 14 secs to filled up 512Mb system memory. Playstation 3 BD-ROM will the advantage over HD-DVD, at the time of PS3 launch, Sony could either equip 2x or 4x speed BD-ROM that will have either transfer rates of 72Mb for 2x or 144Mb for 4x speed, that will filled up the 512Mb system memory with 7 secs for 2x or 3.5 secs for 4x.

AthlonXP1800
08-31-05, 02:54 AM
What the hell are you talking about!? The original Xbox has a hard drive built in.

Opps my mistake so still not all Xbox games require a hard drive to install. :p

GamerGuyX
08-31-05, 02:57 AM
That too bad, Microsoft will one day next year will realised that equiped with DVD-ROM because it cheaper than HD-DVD ROM will be the biggest mistake Microsoft made, they all care about reduced the cost of Xbox 360 hardware but completely forgetten about the important of highest quality graphics gaming, Microsoft really dont know much about consoles since they launched Xbox 3 years ago. When Xbox 360 will be launch in November and people will discover that many launch titles could have toned down graphics nothing like they saw at E3 and the graphics looked much the same as any Xbox games. Sony knew about consoles better than Microsoft did, they did it with Playstation , it used CD-ROM, Playstation 2 has DVD-ROM and now Playstation 3 has BD-ROM. Sony knew that in every generation, the textures getting bigger and better quality, they knew if they wanted movie quality graphics, they will need a new media format big enough to put the whole game on BD-ROM. Microsoft definetely need HD-DVD with Xbox 360 as standard, it will have transfer rate of 36.5Mb p/s, that will take 14 secs to filled up 512Mb system memory. Playstation 3 BD-ROM will the advantage over HD-DVD, at the time of PS3 launch, Sony could either equip 2x or 4x speed BD-ROM that will have either transfer rates of 72Mb for 2x or 144Mb for 4x speed, that will filled up the 512Mb system memory with 7 secs for 2x or 3.5 secs for 4x.


Oh god damnit shut the hell up already. You Sony fanfags are some of the worst out there. :thumbdwn:

AthlonXP1800
08-31-05, 03:53 AM
The lower graphics quality you are seeing in newer console games is due to the platforms themselves being obsolete and having older hardware that doesn't come anywhere near the gaming capabilities of a current PC. It has nothing to do with storage capacity. As a matter of fact, the xbox version of GTA:SA is about 3.5 gigabytes; well below the 9.2 gigabyte limit of the max DVD capacity. Doom 3 is 4 gig, and kotor is 2 gig. They've still got a lot of room left.

You quite right but still missing something, you had forgetten about compressed files too. A DVD max capacity is 4.7Gb not the 9.2Gb, a dual layer DVD has 9.2Gb but unfortunately DL DVD disks are very expensive and at very very low supply, PC games need millions of disks to mass produced, the developers see very cheap single side CD and DVD was the only storage for games. Just about all PC games were of course been compressed to CD and DVD. Let look at Far Cry DVD as for example:

Far Cry DVD has total of 3.7Gb and you can see it has compressed files here.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/193/farcry5kj.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farcry5kj.jpg)

But the size wont be the same when uncompressed all files and installed on the hard drive, after installation, Far Cry game on hard drive size is 4.6Gb. Far Cry developer cannot write no more than 4.5Gb data to DVD that far quite too big, that why they had to compressed all these files to save spaces.

gmontem
08-31-05, 04:11 AM
I would love to see where you're getting the idea that DL DVDs are expensive to produce, especially considering almost every DVD movie out right now is dual layer. I hope you're not basing this on prices of blank DVD+/-R DL discs.

AthlonXP1800
08-31-05, 04:21 AM
I would love to see where you're getting the idea that DL DVDs are expensive to produce, especially considering almost every DVD movie out right now is dual layer. I hope you're not basing this on prices of blank DVD+/-R DL discs.

Oh really? Can you name any great DVD movies on DL DVDs and I can check it out? So far I find none of them, I bought all 3 Lord of the Rings movies, Star Trek movies and series, V, Star Wars Episode I, II, IV, V, VI and make of Episode III and others all used more than 1 single side DVD on Region 2.