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View Full Version : ATI's Xenos (360 GPU) to have "Fluid Reality"


slick
09-05-05, 09:47 AM
http://www.ati.com/developer/techreports/ATITechReport_EarlyZFlow.pdf

Fluid Reality technology is hardware accelerated by the GPU, and will be able to recreate realisitc fluids, how a characters clothes rustle in the wind, how every hair on a characters face falls into place when their head moves, how an animal's fur shakes when running, and realistic facial expressions.

Granted, this isn't a complete physics package, it will work seemlessly with any other software based physics engines. Developers are free to use this to add that extra level of physics reality, without sacrficing CPU performance. Whether or not AGEIA offers it, the idea that the 360 won't have realistic fluids is wrong.

|MaguS|
09-05-05, 11:55 AM
I don't see anything that great about the technology considering most of it has been possible on current gen consoles and even PC Games. Sure it will be more effiecient but its far from anything special, especially considering that the system is multi cored and could easily off load such calculations onto another core.

Rakeesh
09-05-05, 05:07 PM
I don't see anything that great about the technology considering most of it has been possible on current gen consoles and even PC Games. Sure it will be more effiecient but its far from anything special, especially considering that the system is multi cored and could easily off load such calculations onto another core.

Hmm...are you sure you're a games developer?

slick
09-05-05, 05:20 PM
I don't see anything that great about the technology considering most of it has been possible on current gen consoles and even PC Games. Sure it will be more effiecient but its far from anything special, especially considering that the system is multi cored and could easily off load such calculations onto another core.

Really? Is that so?

Please. I'd like you to point out a game with realistic fluids, clothes on a characters body that move in the wind against the characters body, or maybe realistic hair movement down to single hairs on a characters head. Maybe I've been completely blind these last few months and have missed those spectacular features on all these current generation games.

Enlighten me.

especially considering that the system is multi cored and could easily off load such calculations onto another core.

I know, right! I'm so glad that physics are the only thing that need to be processed these days.

Rakeesh
09-05-05, 05:26 PM
Really? Is that so?

Please. I'd like you to point out a game with realistic fluids, clothes on a characters body that move in the wind against the characters body, or maybe realistic hair movement down to single hairs on a characters head.

Well, he is technically right in that current consoles *could* do it in theory, but what he totally misses is that this allows for an abundance of it to such a degree that current consoles would never in any developers wildest dreams ever be able to do.

He talks like he is or at least works for a games developer, but every now and then he says some of the damndest things, much like this, related to console development that are just outright awkward/incorrect and no games developer would ever say.

evilchris
09-05-05, 06:04 PM
Hmm...are you sure you're a games developer?

So he'd have you believe. He allegedly works for a super secret EA division in Florida that has the PS3 dev kits and they came with a lot more documentation than the X360!!!

That's basically what he repeats over and over. He likes to act "in the know" with regards to next gen consoles and implies that he works daily with them. Kind of a Hellbinder.

Rakeesh
09-05-05, 06:57 PM
So he'd have you believe. He allegedly works for a super secret EA division in Florida that has the PS3 dev kits and they came with a lot more documentation than the X360!!!

That's basically what he repeats over and over. He likes to act "in the know" with regards to next gen consoles and implies that he works daily with them. Kind of a Hellbinder.

Yeah it sounds a lot like two people I know who are compulsive liars. They go around saying different things about themselves in an attempt to earn favoritism and respect from everybody around them. They constantly boast things that they do and whatnot, and it sounds incredible initially and you don't really think twice about it at first.

But then when you get to know them more, you start to see holes in most of the things they say when they give you conflicting information, or just say certain things that really trigger a bullsh*t alarm in your head. After a while it just gets rediculous and you can't trust a single damn thing they say because they lie so much, and when you tell them about it they get all pissed off at you and insist that they aren't lieing. I told one of them that I don't mind it since he is lieing for personal glory rather than to deceive, but the bullsh*t gets annoying after a while. He still fired back and insisted that he never told a lie in his life. :rolleyes:

slick
09-05-05, 06:58 PM
We have a resident tech-head over at TeamXbox that always gives us (extremely) in-depth comparative analysis's and objective statements about these kinds of topics when they come up. I will probably end up quoting him alot on here, but he is completely unbiased and very fair to the situation(s) at hand. He knows his stuff very well.


"Fluid Reality" technology in XENOS and future ATI GPUs is indeed "Hardware Accelerated" as it is part of the hardware technology in XENOS. This was described in a few previous articles about XENOS in the XBox360 and was described to provide complex material physics such as clothing, water, skins, and so forth. The difference here is that this can be done on the graphics card itself instead of an external processor, but I do not know how effective XENOS is in handling these material physics.

If you want to refer to hardware versus software physics processing...
*AGEIA on XENON... Software based physics rendering (can be done on any one or more of XENON's cores).
*AGEIA on Cell... Software based physics rendering (done mostly on the SPEs)
*AGEIA's PhysX PPU PCIe card for computers... Hardware based physics rendering (handled on a seperate add-in card like a video card).
*ATI's "Fluid Reality"... Hardware based physics rendering (handled on the GPU itself and is part of XENOS, mostly limited to just material physics)

There are a lot of things that AGEIA's PPU can handle that ATI's solution won't handle, but that is why you still have software solutions available. XENON itself is capable of handling fluid animations and other complex physics made available with AGEIA's SDK, but that is not the only solution that the XBox360 has available to it as XENOS can provide complex material physics itself. AGEIA's solution goes futher though as it can also handle massive quantities of simple physics that likely can not be done with ATI's solution (such as having 100s or 1000s of bolders interact with each other as they come crashing down a hill). Overall AGEIA's solution is still perfered over ATI's solution as AGEIA's solution is cross platform and more encompassing.

I guess the bottom line is that the notion that the XBox360 can't handle fluid physics animations and other complex material physics is completely false, not only from the CPU's capacity to handle AGEIA's SDK solution, but from the context that XENOS can provide this function on it's own.

Just remember... AGEIA is not the only one who can provide a meaningful physics solution.

*UPDATE* - There are certain benefits to having physics calculations done on the GPU itself instead of externally, I may talk about that another day though.



Would it be possible to use Xenos's physics and a software based physics engine at the same time?

It is very much so possible, though it is still up to the developer to figure out where to use them and how to use them. The feature is present for developers to take advantage of, but it is something they will have to use on their own as this is not part of any middleware solution that is part of XNA (such as Havoc or AGEIA).

hey who told you all these tings...only a single spe is enough to handle all ageia features....again read the articles released by ibm on cell....ibm also built the xenon cpu so they have to be unbiased...but it is their claim that the cell could do 256 gflops....they are the ones who said that each cell processor was easily at least 10x more powerful than their own pc based processor as well as the xenos...they have alwasys commended the CELL ...they never even cared about xenos and why would they when 1.83 billion dollar was spent to produce cell as opposed to 343 million for xenos

A single SPE can't do jack squat in regards to the Cell (remember that it is dependant) and it does not have the memory to handle everything by itself, this solution requires a lot more than a single SPE to produce the required results. Secondly that claim of 256GFLOPs was a Cell CPU clocked at 4.6GHz and with all 8 SPEs active... the PS3's Cell should be clocked between 2.4GHz (current DevKit speeds) to 3.2GHz (target clock speeds in final hardware) with 1 SPE disabled for defects. Additionally you do NOT want to dedicate all 7 SPEs to physics calculations as you still need to process other game related things, like sound for example (which will require 1 SPE for itself) so at best you won't see more than 4 SPEs used for physics calculations in an actual game. Also IBM had nothing to do with XENOS and Sony payed IBM to make them a processor... but IBM does not own the design, Sony does. This processor is IN COMPETITION to their own processor lines (the PowerPC), and do you really think they would make a processor better than their own lines? IBM's future is like AMD's and Intel's and that is multicore processors and that is exactly what XENON is based on... IBM's future processors. Remember that just because you spent a lot of money on something does not mean it is any good. 10 times more powerful? No... not even close... even using the most favorable metrics to the Cell processor it is at best offers 4-5 times greater theoretical performance in floating point operations (IBM PPC 2.5GHz is about 40GFLOPS, Cell CPU at 3.2GHz is around 200GFLOPs). Theoretical performance usually does not equate to real performance though. There is more to life and a processors's performance than it's theoretical floating point performance, and it is important to remember that... actually floating point performance is a minor factor in a CPU's overall performance.

Don't believe the hype, because a lot of what Sony is saying about the Cell CPU is exactly what they said about the Emotion Engine about 5 or so years ago.

So you googled for 'ati' and 'fluid' and found something I see...

Too bad it has nothing to do with the huge performance gap AGEIA is seeing between the PS3 and 360.

There is no performance gap AGEIA claimed between XENON and Cell, and in regards to certain statements made to the contrary... that was purely conjecture. I certainly do not see any major difference between the Cell's and XENON's capacity to handle physics solutions such as AGEIA's. There is more at work that some people realize though... and things that people simply forgot to remember. XENON is very much so capable of all features as part of their SDK as the Cell processor... though in time we may find out which system is more capable in this field, but this is something that will be somewhat hard to judge.

When you say Xenos, you mean Xenon the Xbox 360 cpu right?

Also, Gamemaster when could you post more on the features of the Xbox 360 GPU?

XENOS is what the XBox360's GPU is called publically, it's working name was "C1"... furthermore this GPU is actually 2 GPU cores on a package or what I refer to as a "Split Processor". XENON is what the XBox360's CPU is called publically, it's working name was "Waternoose"... furthermore it is actually 3 CPU cores on a single die and those cores are basically heavily modified PPC 970MP processors with special functions built into them to help with procedural technologies (XBox Procedural Synthesis) and the capacity to have cores directly slaved to the GPU itself as well as a number of other interesting modifications. I believe I stated some of the more noted features of XENOS in a previous post, but maybe in the future I will do so again.

Just got done playing a session of Grandia Xtreme and I am going to bed now, good night all



Just what he has to say regarding the topic.

oldsk00l
09-05-05, 07:57 PM
hahah

all the debate and speculation, and egos

all of it, out the window both in a year, and in 3 years, and then in 4 years,

zilch, meaningless, worthless, nothing but self aggrandizing opportunities

Nv40
09-06-05, 12:41 AM
Really? Is that so?

Please. I'd like you to point out a game with realistic fluids, clothes on a characters body that move in the wind against the characters body, or maybe realistic hair movement down to single hairs on a characters head. Maybe I've been completely blind these last few months and have missed those spectacular features on all these current generation games.

Enlighten me.




As you wish... :D

When it comes to games.. the word "FLuids" is a general statement used for anything that looks like water by most people.but in the real world is a lot more than water.. FIre ,Air ,Gass any thing that is not solid and flows , BY that definition "fluids" could be just the "water" that we have seen around years in games.. since pixel shaders exist . FOr me Farcry "water" is pretty darn good. I never thought something like that could be possible in games :) When it comes to "realistic fluids" is also a general term ..for games that could be used for something that looks very realistic. In games is all about -how it looks-. not how is done ,(if performance is not an issue of course). It will be a big waste of computer power to simulate things people will never see like under the surface of water ,or air that you cant see.. So realistic fluids could be nothing more for some developers than farcry water with some bouyancy effects, foam and water splashes. with some basic dynamics .but something like that will look really awesome in games. SIlent Hunter3 have very very nice water too.. and simulate water displacement of their submarines. all this stuff is possible with Dx9 effects. and with Dx8 too.. is amazing that farcry water was done using PS1.x.

So to say "realistic fluids" could mean anything that looks very realistic. because in games is all about -how things looks-. In that case any Directx9 gpu will be able to do pretty awesome fluids.the only diference its that latest Dx9 hardware is a lot more faster. and can do more tricks ,more cool stuff in real time.

For a scientist is a diferent story.. if there is something like "Realistic fluids" it should behave exactly like real water in real life.with gravity and all those science laws ..for study purposes.but im not aware of anything like that ,neither anything remotely close that use computer graphics that is 100% real thing..because to simulate something like that will require super computer power beyond what any big laboratory will ever dream two have. the only "Real fluids" i know are those tank water simulators used by engineers,but they use real water to predict ocean waves conditions. and also those wind tunnels that use airlines when they are building their planes.. but they use the Turbine of a jet to simulate "Realistic fluids". In simply words if you want Realistic FLuids ,your only hope is to use the real thing. :)

For Cg graphics.. is like games.. how it looks. is more important than how was done . generally speaking .( it could be important at times the way it was done when it comes to software compatibilty with another buts thats just a diferent discussion) How was done~ in the sense that is not important that its behaviour is identical to the real thing because they dont need the fluids for study purposes.but just for fun. and for study purposes nothing is more accurate the the real thing.CG graphics ,game graphics ,any graphic that will be used for entertainment have anything but "realism" after all.. its all emulation that its only purpose is fun and eye candy. Programs like RealFLow (http://www.nextlimit.com/realflow/index.html) are not either "realistic".. but they are really good water emulators in the way it looks ..good enough to be used in movies. the funny thing is that CG studios use the real thing in their closer camera shots ,this is the common practice ..because nothing beats the quality and the accuracy of the real thing and we dont have all the computer power to recreate all the possible conditions of real fluids in real life using CG. this is by far the most expensive thing to do in CG graphics today. because not only the motion of water need to be emulated as real as possible but also the light and the physics of everything. the "more realistic" water in CG im aware until today were done for the Perfect STorm movie. they recreated giant waves composed around ~5 billion particles.. something very insane.. never done before :eek: all using CG.. and it took almost a year to render all that water in supercomputers.. but the closer shots were filmed in a giant pool with real water. ;)

So any Dx9 gpu should be able to do "realistic fluids" in the sense that "looks" more closer than ever to the real thing ,it just that the latest consoles will have a lot more power than gaming PC's.. and will allow to do more things than never before of what we have seen in games until now.HAvok and Aegias have software to simulate very good physics and fluids animations in games. but is not "Realistic" after all. is just a simulation.

Rakeesh
09-06-05, 12:51 AM
As you wish... :D

Ah crap...after this talk about people pretending to be experts in areas that they know nothing about, it decides to invade this thread as well... Worst of all is it attempts to regain its credibility by introducing a red herring into the conversation.

Nv40
09-06-05, 12:57 AM
Ah crap...after this talk about people pretending to be experts in areas that they know nothing about, it decides to invade this thread as well... Worst of all is it attempts to regain its credibility by introducing a red herring into the conversation.


Im not an expert.. just a fluid fanboy .. :D
I have some experience with fluids programs.. so was sharing my 2 cents here.. :)

|MaguS|
09-06-05, 01:43 AM
Really? Is that so?

Please. I'd like you to point out a game with realistic fluids, clothes on a characters body that move in the wind against the characters body, or maybe realistic hair movement down to single hairs on a characters head.

The entire Dead or Alive series on the Xbox, Tekken 5, Virtua Fighter 4, Soul Calibur 1/2, Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders, Jade Empire and there are probably a few more but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

If these games were able to have such features with a single CPU, it could be accomplished on another core of the CPU while the rest of the game is processed on its own core aswell. Isn't this the reason everyone says dual cores are so great (PC and Console) to offload some intensive operations onto another core?

Like AlphaWolf said, It is technically accomplished, Just that this round of consoles will be able to pull it off far better then the previous ones did. Last generation consoles had to share all the load on their on a single CPU and were still able to do some realistic cloth simulation. Next generation will just look and be better.

Who said I worked for a super secret division, not to hard to figure out where I work if you had half a brain. I just can't talk about the game I am going to be working on.

gram_vaz
09-06-05, 01:44 AM
i remember when skies of arcadia on dreamcast had that 'fluid' animation in a blanket in a cut-scene. i was just dumbstruck when i saw that. it was the first time i had ever seen something like that in a 3d game.

Ninja Prime
09-06-05, 02:03 AM
Hmm...are you sure you're a games developer?

As I recall, he said he was a game tester, I.E., the poor sucker who as to play the crappy EA games before they are finished and report all the bugs...

With all the bugs EA's games have when they are released, I can only imagine that would be like playing the worst game ever over and over.

|MaguS|
09-06-05, 02:07 AM
Im a Programmer for EA Tiburon, I use to be a Part Time Software Engineer, I use to only clean up code and make minor changes. Never did Game Testing as a profession.

Rakeesh
09-06-05, 02:09 AM
Im not an expert.. just a fluid fanboy .. :D
I have some experience with fluids programs.. so was sharing my 2 cents here.. :)

...

Ok this is just getting progressively stupider (pun intended.) I am absolutely done posting in the console forums until one of the next gen consoles is actually released.

Ninja Prime
09-06-05, 02:30 AM
Im a Programmer for EA Tiburon, I use to be a Part Time Software Engineer, I use to only clean up code and make minor changes. Never did Game Testing as a profession.

I see, I just remembered this:

came out and stated I work for EA, I am a Software Engineer working QA

And assumed QA = Game Tester, as it has in my experiance. My bad.