View Full Version : CrossFire doesn't work with high resolutions
http://www.penstarsys.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=8;t=14;r=1
Things are getting more and more interesting as time goes on...
I have received some 3rd party confirmation that testers with CrossFire rigs can't in fact get above 1600x1200 @ 60 Hz with CRTs.
Something else to consider is that the Compositing chip doesn't appear to have built in RAMDACs or a TMDS transmitter, so has to use external ones. From what we are starting to see, it might just be the lack of high quality, built in RAMDACs or TMDSs that is limiting the solution to 1600x1200 60 Hz. If this is the case, ATI is indeed in big trouble as there are certain things you just can't work around.
Owned. :D :thumbdwn:
It is a well composed discussion. The wild card is whether or not the two cards need to be synchronized to input data into the framebuffer. This may mean that despite the amount of bandwidth ultimately available being more than half a frame, the SIL chip may be held back by the frame buffer combination methods and data reassembly.
Like the R520, we have to wait and see for retail product reviews. With GTX SLI, there is obviously a push to discuss high resolution with FSAA, and I mean really high. All you have to do is look at the numbers put up by MikeC in the MSI SLI update on the front page ti understand how much horsepower is available with the GTX in SLI. We have to remain mindful of future HD needs, such as 1080p resolution.
Looks like pretty much all of the previous discussion about Crossfire not doing high resolutions was just fanboy dreaming. Who knew nVidia slides about ATi would end up biased/wrong? I sure didn't:
With all of the next generation graphics chips guaranteed to support two dual link TMDS transmitters if the next generation Crossfire uses the same master/slave with compositor system then just using one of the TMDS transmitters should mean the maximum resolution of the slave image could go up to 2048x1536 @ 85Hz and ATI only need include a dual link DVI on the master card and these higher resolutions could be achieved with Crossfire.
ATI Avivo Technology Preview (http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/ati/avivo/index.php?p=04)
Looks like pretty much all of the previous discussion about Crossfire not doing high resolutions was just fanboy dreaming. Who knew nVidia slides about ATi would end up biased/wrong? I sure didn't:
ATI Avivo Technology Preview (http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/ati/avivo/index.php?p=04)
How are they wrong? It says it would be limited to 1600x1200@60hz with the current X800 and X850 Radeons and speculates that it won't be an issue with the next generation of cards if they do things a little differently. Hence, the words "if" and "should", etc. Still seems like an unknown to me.
The limitation still exist with the X800 series Crossfire cards. The X1800 series on the other hand should not be affected. (Good news finally).
GlowStick
09-20-05, 05:17 PM
Well DaveB got some brownie points for randomly putting in ATi propaganda in unrelated articles.
IRQ Conflict
09-20-05, 05:45 PM
I think that x8xx's and CF were an afterthought. But the R520 won't have this limitation at all.
Crossfire with R5-series GPUs suffers no such limitation given the dual-link outputs for DVI. Enough said.
AVIVO Preview (http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xNjIyJnVybF9wYWdlPTc =)
Looks like pretty much all of the previous discussion about Crossfire not doing high resolutions was just fanboy dreaming. Who knew nVidia slides about ATi would end up biased/wrong? I sure didn't:
Originally Posted by Dave Baumann re: Avivo
With all of the next generation graphics chips guaranteed to support two dual link TMDS transmitters if the next generation Crossfire uses the same master/slave with compositor system then just using one of the TMDS transmitters should mean the maximum resolution of the slave image could go up to 2048x1536 @ 85Hz and ATI only need include a dual link DVI on the master card and these higher resolutions could be achieved with Crossfire.
ATI Avivo Technology Preview (http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/ati/avivo/index.php?p=04)It seems like ATI fanboys swallow hard factual ;) shoulda/woulda/coulda statements? (see key words bolded above) Talk about your vague statements. :D
Heh nice catch Clay.
i see lots of talking about DVI for LCD owners , but what about the CRTs ?? i have 2 Flat CRTs that are capable of up to 2048x1536@70 or 72Hz (not quite sure now).
i play most of my games on 1600x1200@75Hz .. does that mean i'm out of the Crossfire game ??
If you're using a CRT via a DVI to VGA connector, then the DVI connector doesn't affect you at all, as it's basically just a direct pass through.
GlowStick
09-20-05, 10:30 PM
If you're using a CRT via a DVI to VGA connector, then the DVI connector doesn't affect you at all, as it's basically just a direct pass through.?? explane?
I speculate that even if a crt is connected, the secondary card still xmits in dvi mode. so then the master card could then just send the old frames over and over again but still it woudlnt help.
?? explane?
I speculate that even if a crt is connected, the secondary card still xmits in dvi mode. so then the master card could then just send the old frames over and over again but still it woudlnt help.
Explain? Well I'll try to, i'm not an expert but my undestanding is...
A single link DVI only transmits at 165MHz to a TFT display, this is solved by having dual link DVI connections which is kind of like having two transmitters in one. So it transmits at around 330MHz. This frequency is what is limiting resolutions as it can only transmit so much data at that particular speed, 165Mhz = maximum of 1600x1200@60Hz. 330MHz = 2048x1536@85Hz.
A DVI-I interface is both Digital and Analogue. The little Plus sign type thing to one side of the connector is outputting analogue which is exactly the same as what a VGA connector does. So when you use a DVI to VGA convertor this all you are using from the DVI-I connector. It basically bypasses the whole digital 165MHz side of the connector as it's not trasmitting TMDS any more, so the whole limited resolution issue isn't a problem.
I don't really know how things will be with crossfire exactly. It's not released and I haven't read too much into it yet. I do know that the new cards have two dual link DVIs on them so it shouldn't be a problem no matter what monitor you are using.
I hope some of that made sense.
It seems like ATI fanboys swallow hard factual ;) shoulda/woulda/coulda statements? (see key words bolded above) Talk about your vague statements. :D
You don't have to believe anything I say.
You could actually just say "I still don't believe you, because DB said "should".
At which point I'd point to the DriverHeaven (http://www.driverheaven.net/articles/avivo/) article, then you'd say "It's DH, ATi owns them"!
Then I'd point to Hexus (http://www.hexus.net/content/beanz/beanz.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xNjI5) , and you say "Hexus doesn't know what they're talking about".
After then I'd point to the Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26319) , and you'd still say "le Inq is a rumor monger"
At that time everyone would realize you're a philosophy major, and don't even believe the hand in front of your face exists. This whole thread is a figment of your imagination, and the guy that can't swallow hard factual is in fact you.
BTW, since when do ATI fanboys own nVidia 6800GT's?
I think the point was, you readily dismissed speculation that didn't favor ATI and readily accepted speculation favoring them as fact. Hmm, think I've seen that before.
BTW, we have a lot of people that mainly show up here when product launches are looming and frequently, they claim they're "nvidia fans" or that they use a Nvidia card. Strangely enough, a lot of them never seem to miss an opportunity to downplay a new nvidia product (upcoming/recently launched) or to criticize nvidia but they will staunchly defend ATI every chance they get. Kind of weird, huh?
I think the point was, you readily dismissed speculation that didn't favor ATI and readily accepted speculation favoring them as fact. Hmm, think I've seen that before.
BTW, we have a lot of people that mainly show up here when product launches are looming and frequently, they claim they're "nvidia fans" or that they use a Nvidia card. Strangely enough, a lot of them never seem to miss an opportunity to downplay a new nvidia product (upcoming/recently launched) or to criticize nvidia but they will staunchly defend ATI every chance they get. Kind of weird, huh?
That would make sense if I wasn't a member already for over a year and a half. Besides, why should another person jump on the anti-ATi bandwagon, when there are enough people already getting the point across. Its redundant.
When you see people here putting more belief in a nVidia produced slide show regarding ATI more than ATi's own released info, that's suspect. That's what's going on here. Too many people thinking one thing when it's something very different. And when I point it out, then say "I don't believe you", "I believe the hard factual" truth nVidia gave. I've never dismissed speculation against ATi because I knew otherwise.
You don't have to believe anything I say.
You could actually just say "I still don't believe you, because DB said "should".
At which point I'd point to the DriverHeaven (http://www.driverheaven.net/articles/avivo/) article, then you'd say "It's DH, ATi owns them"!
Then I'd point to Hexus (http://www.hexus.net/content/beanz/beanz.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xNjI5) , and you say "Hexus doesn't know what they're talking about".
After then I'd point to the Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26319) , and you'd still say "le Inq is a rumor monger"
At that time everyone would realize you're a philosophy major, and don't even believe the hand in front of your face exists. This whole thread is a figment of your imagination, and the guy that can't swallow hard factual is in fact you.
BTW, since when do ATI fanboys own nVidia 6800GT's?
If it so beyond any doubt then why use terms like "should" and "could". That is very vauge, simple as that. Not sure why you went off on such a rant about a philosophy major, etc :confused:
Oh and there are plenty of ATI fanboys that preface their posts with "I'm no fanboy because I own an NVIDIA card..." then they proceed to so grossly exhibit that they most definitely are an ATI fanboy. They think some people were just born yesterday I suppose. :)
If it so beyond any doubt then why use terms like "should" and "could". That is very vauge, simple as that. Not sure why you went off on such a rant about a philosophy major, etc :confused:
Oh and there are plenty of ATI fanboys that preface their posts with "I'm no fanboy because I own an NVIDIA card..." then they proceed to so grossly exhibit that they most definitely are an ATI fanboy. They think some people were just born yesterday I suppose. :)
If you need a source that doesn't use the words "should" or "could", then read Hexus. It was already pointed out for you, but you missed it apparently:
Crossfire with R5-series GPUs suffers no such limitation given the dual-link outputs for DVI. Enough said.
There are many more people that own an nvidia card that say they aren't an nvidia fanboy and are more objective themselves while posting 7,000 times on an nvidia-based forum. Your argument is circular.
The philosophy comment refers to your level of belief in whether or not Crossfire does or does not support super-high resolutions at refresh rates higher than 60Hz. I have multiple and different sources saying it does, while you say it does not (source=nVidia slide show).
Which seems based more in the hard factual? :rolleyes:
It's not about whether I believe it or not, that's beside the point. I just find it amusing when some people act like Dave Baumann is beyond reproach; even when he makes such vague statements at times. There are just a few DB lemmings running around that crack me up (not saying you are one per se).
I don't think your understanding where I'm coming from enough to say that my argument is circular. Actually, I have no argument (more of an observation) if you'll read more closely. I never said that xfire does not, show me where I did. No big deal, many people make it a habit of putting words in others' mouths regarding things like this. It's typical. :)
And who are you Karma? Haven't you been banned several times before?
GlowStick
09-21-05, 03:40 PM
Explain? Well I'll try to, i'm not an expert but my undestanding is...
A single link DVI only transmits at 165MHz to a TFT display, this is solved by having dual link DVI connections which is kind of like having two transmitters in one. So it transmits at around 330MHz. This frequency is what is limiting resolutions as it can only transmit so much data at that particular speed, 165Mhz = maximum of 1600x1200@60Hz. 330MHz = 2048x1536@85Hz.
A DVI-I interface is both Digital and Analogue. The little Plus sign type thing to one side of the connector is outputting analogue which is exactly the same as what a VGA connector does. So when you use a DVI to VGA convertor this all you are using from the DVI-I connector. It basically bypasses the whole digital 165MHz side of the connector as it's not trasmitting TMDS any more, so the whole limited resolution issue isn't a problem.
I don't really know how things will be with crossfire exactly. It's not released and I haven't read too much into it yet. I do know that the new cards have two dual link DVIs on them so it shouldn't be a problem no matter what monitor you are using.
I hope some of that made sense.Ok, so on future cards it may not be a problem. But that is too little too late. But are you saying that for the launched crossfire platforms that if they use VGA they dont have a limitation? That cant be the case becase the slave card has to xmit data via DVi regardless becuase the master card can only 'read' dvi. So in effect even if the drivers allow crt's to have higher refresh rates, it will be the same frames send over and over. Like for the doom3 engine how iD locks it at 60fps because anything higher than that will be the same images.
Ok, so on future cards it may not be a problem. But that is too little too late. But are you saying that for the launched crossfire platforms that if they use VGA they dont have a limitation? That cant be the case becase the slave card has to xmit data via DVi regardless becuase the master card can only 'read' dvi. So in effect even if the drivers allow crt's to have higher refresh rates, it will be the same frames send over and over. Like for the doom3 engine how iD locks it at 60fps because anything higher than that will be the same images.
Yes I think could be quite right about that. The slave card however only has to send half the frames and the master does the other half right? So there may be a slight possiblity that it won't be issue. From everyone seems to be saying though, it should be an issue. I guess we will find out for sure really soon.
Peoples-Agent
09-25-05, 07:24 AM
ATI just made me feel alot better about investing in NF4 and a 7800GT ready to get SLI'ed early in the New Year. It's a sad shame though if these limitations turn out to be true, it's bad for the game as a whole. The more competition at the front of the race, the more they will thrive for better improvements between generations.
Last time I bothered with an ATI card was back when the 3DFX Voodoo cards were about (and that was just a 2D card to go with my Voodoo), and ofcourse they were eventually taken over by nVidia and haven't done too badly since, yeah I am a nVidia fanboy and have been from day one, but I would like to see ATI dropping some awesome product just so nVidia keep ontop of things and keep dropping good cards, imagine if there were no ATI, do you really think the 7800 series would have been this good? ....I seriously doubt it.
Sort that out ATI ffs !!!!!
oldsk00l
09-26-05, 10:31 AM
And who are you Karma? Haven't you been banned several times before?
*oldsk00l walks in, notices it's been a couple days since Karma has posted....lol's....then chimes in*
If there is one thing I've noticed, it's that they went ape at several other sites, and the only constructive discussion was here up until a certain guy starts talking about philosophy majors.....which....is totally relevant right?
Well it's confirmed. Current Crossfire setups with X800 series videocards are limited to 1600X1200 60HZ max rez. In the words of one of my spanish speaking friends...this is what is called "una bolsa de basura!" :thumbdwn:
HighTest
09-27-05, 01:38 PM
I refuse to believe that ATI would ship cards with this limitation.
So now that they are shipping, what do you think? Can't refuse the truth now that the information is verifiable by anyone who cares to.
ATI CrossFire in current gen = :thumbdwn:
ATI CrossFire in next gen = :confused: (but I suspect it's the same as the first theorem).
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