NVidia should STOP supporting Linux

[n4phth4]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_3) (I know it's not an authority) "Doom 3 achieved gold status on July 14, 2004" and "Linux version was released on October 4". Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like it was on the CD.

It wasn't. Nor was there a quake4 Linux binary when it was released.

The Windows versions always come out first simply because everyone (game developers) is about making $$ as fast as possible, and M$ has an undeniable stranglehold on the computing software market. It's only logical for game companies to target the largest user base first and then make a few extra bucks with the other groups (Linux, OSX, etc) later.

The only people I know of to ever release Linux binaries were the folks at the now-defunct Loki Games (http://www.lokigames.com/). But even then, they took code that was written for Windows and ported it to Linux. It's a shame that Loki went under; we need more folks like them to target alternative OSes to get the mainstream interested in such alternative OSes. A lot of people don't consider using Linux because the first thing they ask is "Can I run this game and this program on it?" and the answer is usually "No" or "Not without some work on your part". This is the response because there's (still) relatively very few companies writing mainstream code for Linux (compared to Windows); there's few companies writing mainstream code for Linux because there's few users (compared to Windows). See the catch-22? I hate chicken-and-egg problems.

Keith

[jandd]

There is another good reason to GPL the drivers. Maybe someone at nvidia should read this (http://www.kroah.com/log/2005/11/21/). At the moment it is only a fun patch, but it may become real linux kernel policy soon.

[monz]

You look to me like someone who can't get the driver to work and yells at nvidia because of his own fault. For most people, the driver works, so stopping the linux drivers would be the worst thing NVidia could do.
Also, you didn't really investigate into that: The kernel module is open source. Only the X11 driver is closed source. I doubt that you even really looked at the driver! I even doubt that you tried to install it, otherwise you would have seen that the kernel module gets compiled!

Hmm.. End users, even those setting up exotic (Xen) virtualisation, shouldn't have to look into the driver sources.
Regarding Xen, it's not a question of not knowing how to make the driver work. Just about no videodrivers, Nvidia's included, are Xen-aware.
Videodrivers has to know about the Xen Hypervisor, or the recipe for disaster is met. It's not enough that the kernel module is opensource.

Now, to be fair, after I briefly described some of the problems involved with Xen, and the possible gains for Nvidia, they actually opened a RFE to address that topic.
Pls. see http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=60125.

To be even more fair: Accepting or rejecting non-OSS drivers, Nvidia, as the others, releases (mostly) closed drivers, and over time they mostly works for most users, without too much fuzz. Yes, I know there are some problems with some advanced features.
But looking at it from a developers point of view:
The single uniform driver has to work on several version of the 2.4 and 2.6 series kernels, with several version of XFree86 and X.org servers...
I used to be a fulltime programmer, so I think I can relate to getting it all to work.

Some of us are anciously awaiting a hopefully positive outcome to the Xen issue.
(@Lonni:) though having been urgely invited to join, there doesn't seem to be any Nvidia folks on the xen-devel list as yet. ..)

[Redeeman]

i agree with the original poster.. either nvidia do a proper job or dont do at all.. hell the latest release, i doubt if they even tested before releasing, cause it got major bugs in the edid detection code..

and if nvidia didnt release a driver which satisfied the most people, someone might even reverse engineer it and create a real drive
r.

[Snipersnest]

I guess you guys that are ANTI Linux Nvidia should just switch to ATI?? Or wait they are having just as many problems.... I have an idea, go back to Windows if your having problems??

Honestly I would rather put up with small tiny problems and have a fully supported 3D drvier. I'm hoping that soon Linux will be more accepted as a gaming OS than Windows. But if everyone drops support for linux we should just revert back to term based OS..no point in having a video card if its not supported.

Also I bought my nvidia card because it IS supported in Linux and has way better support that most ATI drivers...I'm trying to do my part by supporting vendors that would like to support other OS's besides Windows.

[sphincter]

There is another good reason to GPL the drivers. Maybe someone at nvidia should read this (http://www.kroah.com/log/2005/11/21/). At the moment it is only a fun patch, but it may become real linux kernel policy soon.

Here's a clue for that person and every other whiner wants every vendor to open source everything they produce: it ain't gonna happen in the foreseeable future. Those vendors will not open source anything. They will, however, drop support for linux if it becomes too difficult to support it. That's how it works when your primary motivation is profit. I know for certain this would happen in the case of my company. We do support some FLOSS stuff and happily submit patches back to the authors, but for certain of our products, being that they're the most advanced of their type by far (no joke, we really can do things that no other vendor can touch), open sourcing our kernel modules is not an option unless we wanted to kiss the company good bye. And the reason is, we aren't a hardware vendor. We're an ISV. Our kernel module *is* the product. Open sourcing it under the GPL would allow every one of our competitors to instantly match everything we do, removing any real market advantage we have. And that's what the zealots just don't get.

And this, of course, would relegate linux back to a hobbyist's niche OS, as we'd have only basic support for mostly older hardware. And I'd certainly be back on my Solaris and Windows boxes, as computers are a tool, not an ideal, as far as I'm concerned. I want linux to succeed. But compromise and co-operation are required. And aside from that, things like that patch only feed the windows zealots ammunition, allowing them to continue to decry how linux isn't business friendly, and is really just toy written by geeks for geeks.

I've said it before and probably will be forced to again: perhaps on some future day we'll be able to get rid of patents and copyrights and all the other cruft currently holding society back. But until then, we have to work with what we have, while working towards what we want.

[gilboa]

yes that would, any other ones?

Let me think.
RtWC?
Enemy Territory?
Quake 3?
Doom 3?
Quake 4?
UT2K3/4?
(I don't consider downloading binary patch from developer to be lesser on-disc then having a built-in Linux installer)

... And the nvidia binary drivers won't work under a Xen kernel. I found this out after a day of trying to get the nvidia drivers to compile a custom interface for my kernel. I talked to the Xen developers and they confirmed my worst fears: It's just not going to work.

Can you post a full bug report about it in the Linux driver section?

Cheers,

[wnd]

I don't consider downloading binary patch from developer to be lesser on-disc then having a built-in Linux installer

Then what about downloading the installer? What about Neverwinter Nights? Linux-client came out months later than the product. Not everyone is aware of installers available "somewhere". I wonder how many Windos users would buy a game with only Apple-logo on the box -- even if there was an installer available somewhere. (Not that I would be relating Windos users to GNU/Linux users.) Where do you draw the line?

[feeyo]

nVidia owns!

[Gnu_Raiz]

Let me think.


Can you post a full bug report about it in the Linux driver section?

Cheers,

Like that will happen! Or maybe even a mailing list post id?

You would think that if the driver does not support something the user wants; then the user would want to work with the driver team to see if they can come up with a solution.

Also I think its a little strange that their was no replacement hardware mentioned. Nvidia sucks, ATI rules type of comment.

I like most of the Gnu/Linux -*bsd fans will take what I can get, even if its binary only. Sure it would be nice to have it under the gpl, but I take what's I can get. After all something is better then nothing.

Gnu_Raiz

[gilboa]

I assume that there was a point for your comment, right?

[gnutux]

Like that will happen! Or maybe even a mailing list post id?

You would think that if the driver does not support something the user wants; then the user would want to work with the driver team to see if they can come up with a solution.

Also I think its a little strange that their was no replacement hardware mentioned. Nvidia sucks, ATI rules type of comment.

I like most of the Gnu/Linux -*bsd fans will take what I can get, even if its binary only. Sure it would be nice to have it under the gpl, but I take what's I can get. After all something is better then nothing.

Gnu_Raiz

There are things that you CANNOT GPL. Not all software in the world can be GPLed. Such as NVIDIA drivers. If NVIDIA GPLed their drivers then they'd go under.

Please use your senses.

gnutux

[vh-bil]

"NVidia should STOP supporting Linux" ??? What dumbass started this thread again? :p

[Sasha_A]

:) This thread is nice and old I see-- but still relevant. Time for its yearly revival!!

QUOTE : "..or stop supporting Linux altogether so people would stop wasting time trying to get this stuff working because unless you have anything other than the simplest of systems it's going to drive you nuts."

The above is just rubbish.. I like to think my system is rather UN-simple, and while I DID spend a significant amount of time getting everything working *just right*, I would have jumped off a bridge by now had I been screwing with ATI junk and their closed source code. FWIW I have two dual-head PCI-E nVidia cards in my MSI nVidia-chipset SLI-ready mainboard (w/intel CORE2 CPU), and have 4 (yes FOUR) monitors running simultaneously as 4 X-screens w/Xinerama. No big deal. nVidia made this possible for me; I doubt your problem is nVidia. And simply GPLing the driver won't instantly solve your Xen problem. I hope for your and others' benefit that Xen and other weird setups may be supported at some time; but the fact that it isn't at THIS moment (and maybe it IS today, I dunno) is no reason to curse the whole shebang.
For the record, (YES I use Linux exclusively), have an SLI motherboard, but NO-- I don't play games, and I did not buy it to play games; I bought it to run 4 monitors (among other things).

Another thought of mine is that '..if people are that bent on playing video games with their several thousand dollar computer, then run a separate machine filled with M$ proprietary crapola, Windows, etc, and have ALL your hardware working PERFECTLY and to its max potential, thanks to greedy hardware vendors catering to M$ and making hardware toted as being "For Windows" because Windows is not worth much more than that- a nice bloaty expensive game machine; save the Linux box for real work. Or simply invest in a video game console. *nix wasn't created to play games-- get over it if your Linux won't play your silly game.'

I feel that nVidia is doing fantastic in their support for linux-- the fact that their hardware WORKS in Linux is a very good thing, and is more than I can say for a load of other hardware makers, who make keyboards, modems, HID's, webcams, and probably other things, that are made to M$ specs. That stuff isn't "hardware", it is "Windozeware".

[RAMChYLD]

Nvidia should definitely continue supporting Linux. A reasonably large amount of their customers use their hardware in graphic farms, and their Linux support is to date flawless, meaning a lot of happy customers. Would nV be willing to lose a big portion of their market that is the Linux hobbyist and graphic farm operators? Doubt it.

*nix wasn't created to play games-- get over it if your Linux won't play your silly game.
Right, it wasn't. It was created for scientific jobs like 3D rendering, which is still up nV's alley.

As for games on Linux, Oolite is heckuva addictive, and it costs nothing.

[brunson]

"NVidia should STOP supporting Linux" ??? What dumbass started this thread again? :p
The last post before yours was in 2006, so I guess you're the dumbass.