View Full Version : X1800 XT/Pro Review
Yipes.... I'm becoming to realize that the x1800xt is the 5800 Ultra. I need change my avatar :(
Why would they need to announce anything?
So we will have official benchmarks instead of this crap.
Yipes.... I'm becoming to realize that the x1800xt is the 5800 Ultra. I need change my avatar :(
I don't see how you can say that this is even close to the 5800 Ultra. The 5800 had so many disadvantages.
4 pipes vs. 8 pipes
128bit bus vs. 256bit bus
huge and noisy cooler vs. small and quiet one
and worst of all
awful pixel shading 2.0 performance which made modern games like Far Cry unplayable.
gordon151
09-17-05, 05:32 PM
So we will have official benchmarks instead of this crap.
So because these sites are posting this "crap", ATI should scrap their entire release schedule? Um, I really don't think it works like that or even should work like that.
BTW don't you think some of you are being a tad bit, ok maybe not a tad, completely retarded in comparing the X800XT to the 5800U? Even taking the Sandersen comparisons to heart, it's nothing like the 5800U performancewise in comparison to the 9700P. Nor is it similar release wise and it's not been said to be extremely loud or hot. Plus ATI hasn't even released it, where as nVidia released the 5800U and it took near a year to materialize. I mean, crossing your fingers that the next release from ATI will be that bad is pretty lame.
So because these sites are posting this "crap", ATI should scrap their entire release schedule? Um, I really don't think it works like that or even should work like that.
BTW don't you think some of you are being a tad bit, ok maybe not a tad, completely retarded in comparing the X800XT to the 5800U? Even taking the Sandersen comparisons to heart, it's nothing like the 5800U performancewise in comparison to the 9700P. Nor is it similar release wise and it's not been said to be extremely loud or hot. Plus ATI hasn't even released it, where as nVidia released the 5800U and it took near a year to materialize. I mean, crossing your fingers that the next release from ATI will be that bad is pretty lame.
I don't think they have to change their release schedule. However, the article's intended purpose may indeed be to force ATI into releasing benchmarks. We may indeed see a "first look" from one of major sites at ATI's request to silence potential critics.
The trouble is that the perception of the R520, stressing perception, is that the GPU is ATI's NV30. That perception will continue until proven otherwise. History repeats itself. AMD and Intel, NVIDIA and 3dfx, ATI and NVIDIA all have had their execution flip-flops.
The trouble is that the perception of the R520, stressing perception, is that the GPU is ATI's NV30.
Only nvidia fanboy's would think such a thing, and it's not like they're going to go out and buy ATi's new cards anyway. I really don't think ATi cares about them. The truth will be told soon enough when the cards launch.
Interesting .. the results look very close & the tests were done on exact same games :wtf:
& more interesting to see the 512mb card (X1800XT) being beaten in HL2 @1600x1200,4xAA .. the res where it was suppose to shine in.
Only nvidia fanboy's would think such a thing, and it's not like they're going to go out and buy ATi's new cards anyway. I really don't think ATi cares about them. The truth will be told soon enough when the cards launch. sure ATI cares about them...look what nvidia did with the nv4x and g7x lines... they have converted alot of ati fanboys over to nvidia. this is a smart financial move to get poeples hearts and minds over to your side.
Only nvidia fanboy's would think such a thing, and it's not like they're going to go out and buy ATi's new cards anyway. I really don't think ATi cares about them. The truth will be told soon enough when the cards launch.
No, not really. Go to other forums on other websites. There is concern that these numbers may not be far from the truth. What then?
People make buying decisions based on hardware websites. Those on the fnce about waiting for the R520 or buying a GTX, can be swayed.
I work in Telecom. At one point our stock despite our financial standings, hit $.50. We had decent numbers given the market, we had cash reserves, we had positive EBITDA, but because of Worldcom and they're scandals, we had to release earnings early to stablise our stock. This is not on the nearly the same scale, but it has been done before, even in the 3D market.
sorry off topic
EBITDA why arent you guys using gaap?....
Yipes.... I'm becoming to realize that the x1800xt is the 5800 Ultra. I need change my avatar :(
You really need to do so .. even that card on your avatar isnt a real R520 :o
As noted by shabby, the reactions here were NEVER that drastic.
Right thats what i said, no one here said that nvidia lost or whatever.
oldsk00l
09-19-05, 09:45 PM
hoaxware analysis, honestly I'm very glad ATI did this.
Kudo's to Bania for how he is handling all this too.
So the truth is that Sanders at hoaxware analysis is fibbing, and the entire thing exposed as a scam.
Traditionally, I don't post in this forum.
Although I have massive respect for the work that goes on with Beyond3D - I always feel that the forum is best left to enthusiasts in the general public as well as the hardcore technologists from ATI and other organisations.
However, the ‘Hardware Analysis thread’ brought up several issues that I am not about to ignore and I want to set the record straight.
Firstly, at ATI we always try to work to the highest standards of professionalism and honesty possible. We have an open relationship with all of the press across the globe and we never shy away from tough questions.
Briefings
We have invited over 100 of Europe’s top press to our R520 Tech Day which takes place at the end of September.
Even with so many places, we cannot invite everyone.
The question remains - how do we brief the press who cannot make it on the day.
From the time that our Tech Day, we will be working with the regional press that we missed to ensure that as many technical journalists as possible have access to the relevant information.
Journalists who have seen and tested the final product themselves, can then be certain of the facts, should write EXACTLY what they feel.
If they love what they see – great.
If they are not happy with what they see – also great.
All we ask for is honesty in the copy itself... that they 'write it as they see it'
Having read through enough of Dave’s reviews over the years – it is pretty clear that Beyond3D forum members have the same mind set as ATI…
JUST GIVE US THE FACTS & LEAVE THE FICTION AT THE DOOR - WE WILL MAKE OUR OWN MINDS UP THANK YOU VERY MUCH
CONCLUSION: When it comes to R520 results, you should only believe journalists who have established a reputation for being trustworthy
Not Invited
Sander has 'presented the reasons' why he was NOT on the list of 100 press for our R520 Tech Day.
However, he has conveniently left off the actual reason - which he and I have discussed at length in various emails. I am not talkning about a snatched comment - these were full blown conversations - going back and forth - that clearly detail the logic behind the decision.
Not inviting him to this Tech Day is a direct result of his response to the last invitation that I sent him
I am not going in to detail here - but it was that categorical refusal to engage that led to his being left off of this list. He knows exactly what I am talking about.
Remember, he would still have been briefed before the NDA lifted - just not at our Tech Day.
Let me say this clearly, there is no 'ATI black list for press who do not write nice stories'.
We want an open and honest press who report the facts as they see them - based on their own testing - rather than second hand gossip and fairy tales.
There are a number of reasons why any company would stop engaging with an individual - but writing honest copy is not one of them.
Honest reviews serve the vendor just as much as the customer - and anything less should be rejected.
CONCLUSION: If you choose NOT to work with a vendor - don't cry 'foul' when they decide NOT to work with you
Email conversations
As I have pointed out, honesty is crucial.
Emailing several people at ATI to explain that you are very important, that you have a series of specific demands that must be met as soon as possible and then going on to explain just how bad a job we are doing of keeping you happy is one thing.
However, including ATI's direct competition on 'cc' in such an email is another thing entirely.
To then 'jump to the moral high ground' when your 'threats' have been exposed is laughable.
CONCLUSION: Once you pick the rules of engagement - don't get upset when your true character is revealed later on
The Figures
When considering the performance of our next-generation products, you need to ask yourself one very simple question:
"Would ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe’s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"
Sander claims that these numbers were given to him by a trusted source.
The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.
CONCLUSION: Either Sander lied - or his 'trusted source' set him up to look stupid on a global stage for printing made up results
Edits
Intelligent readers also need to be aware that the first version of the story he posted seemed to accuse every site who attends the ATI Tech Day of a fundamental inability to be independent in their testing and copy.
Needless to say that I am sure several sites have 'web-wacked' that original version and will be considering taking action to defend their names.
CONCLUSION: If you are going to accuse the largest independent publications in Europe of being bent - make sure you have enough money in the bank to retain good council
Logic
The whole thing has clearly been engineered - to what purpose no one can say for certain.
Maybe he is trying to force ATI to offer an invitation to Tech Day... which is not going to succeed as we refuse to be strong-armed.
Perhaps it was a simple tantrum at not being taken seriously... when, in fact, that was not the case at all.
Cynical people might say that it was to generate hits... but we cannot be sure of that either.
Whether it was one of these reasons - or a completely different twist of logic - one thing is for certain - it has certainly acted as an appetiser for ATI's next generation launch... and for that I have to say 'Thanks Sander !'
Having corrected several of the 'inaccuracies', I am not going to say any more on the subject because the real strength of the Beyond3D forums is their focus on technology.
How open are we going to be with our Tech Day ?
Simple, in addition to the top news & reviews sites, we have also invited one of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world to come along, get briefed and benchmark R520 however they choose - along with the best of them.
The world's top press will have hands-on our latest products in less than two weeks and you can all decide then if you prefer facts or fiction.
Thank you for taking the time to read this
Kind regards,
Andrzej Bania
ATI Technologies
oldsk00l
09-19-05, 09:45 PM
This nugget is pure gold too
> From: Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis
> [mailto:ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com]
> Sent: 08 September 2005 09:39
> To: Andrzej Bania
> Subject: Re: Editors Day
>
> So you're telling me I'm not invited is that it? I feel an ATI column
> coming
> up, lets see if we can drop the stock price shall we?
>
> Sander Sassen
> http://www.hardwareanalysis.com <http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/>
saturnotaku
09-19-05, 10:03 PM
Simple, in addition to the top news & reviews sites, we have also invited one of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world to come along, get briefed and benchmark R520 however they choose - along with the best of them.
I wonder which site that is/was?
Ninja Prime
09-19-05, 11:01 PM
This nugget is pure gold too
> From: Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis
> [mailto:ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com]
> Sent: 08 September 2005 09:39
> To: Andrzej Bania
> Subject: Re: Editors Day
>
> So you're telling me I'm not invited is that it? I feel an ATI column
> coming
> up, lets see if we can drop the stock price shall we?
>
> Sander Sassen
> http://www.hardwareanalysis.com <http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/>
LOL, what an arrogant ass.
"All I have to do is post one thing on my site and your stock will fall!!!! I am a 1337 hax0r and I have a level 10 virus that can delete your c0dez!"
:udawg:
Oldsk00l did you read more of that thread where Andrzej Bania shows how he can lower himself quite low too. Sander also has a response and it seems ATI cut him off for 6 months because of the few articles he wrote which were critical of ATI and his failure to show up for an event he was invited to. Ati would after 6 months re evaluate their relationship. Do you think The Whitehouse should ban ABC CBS NBC MSN FOX and all the other press that didnt say what they would like to hear for 6 months then re evaluate them to see if there ready to play nice. Good god what a mess!! All over benchmarks that came with a disclaimer and should have been taken as unverified. It seems Ati should have made a statement saying they dont believe the benchmarks are accurate and moved on trying to produce their late offerings. Instead ati, a huge professional company sets out to roll in the mud with Sander. Why?? I geuss ati had to answer as the fanboys were haveing anurisms over the fact unverified benchmarks were showing the r520 may not be as great as their expectations. The whole thing stinks from all sides.. But to blindly believe Ati PR guru Andrzej Bania story as the whole story is just silly. I geuss one good thing we found out is no xt's for 6 to 8 weeks. Ati and Sander trying to strongarm one another didnt need to be made into public laundry. Ive visited Hardware Analysis on occasion to read reviews and have never seen anything to make me believe he was bias or out to slander Ati or fudgeing of benchmarks. Like I said they both look like kids rolling in the mud, but I have enough sense to know theres always 2 stories and the truth usually lies with the mixture of those 2 stories.
Beyond 3d thread or at least whats left of it.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23662&page=7&pp=25
Sanders response to Andrzej Bania
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1814/
I wonder why nvnews hasnt been invited. :D
Drumphil
09-20-05, 12:17 AM
LOL, I'll wait and see but Sanders response to the whole thing reads like Bull****, especially given the way he framed his initial statements.
Oldsk00l did you read more of that thread where Andrzej Bania shows how he can lower himself quite low too. Sander also has a response and it seems ATI cut him off for 6 months because of the few articles he wrote which were critical of ATI and his failure to show up for an event he was invited to. Ati would after 6 months re evaluate their relationship. Do you think The Whitehouse should ban ABC CBS NBC MSN FOX and all the other press that didnt say what they would like to hear for 6 months then re evaluate them to see if there ready to play nice. Good god what a mess!! All over benchmarks that came with a disclaimer and should have been taken as unverified. It seems Ati should have made a statement saying they dont believe the benchmarks are accurate and moved on trying to produce their late offerings. Instead ati, a huge professional company sets out to roll in the mud with Sander. Why?? I geuss ati had to answer as the fanboys were haveing anurisms over the fact unverified benchmarks were showing the r520 may not be as great as their expectations. The whole thing stinks from all sides.. But to blindly believe Ati PR guru Andrzej Bania story as the whole story is just silly. I geuss one good thing we found out is no xt's for 6 to 8 weeks. Ati and Sander trying to strongarm one another didnt need to be made into public laundry. Ive visited Hardware Analysis on occasion to read reviews and have never seen anything to make me believe he was bias or out to slander Ati or fudgeing of benchmarks. Like I said they both look like kids rolling in the mud, but I have enough sense to know theres always 2 stories and the truth usually lies with the mixture of those 2 stories.
Beyond 3d thread or at least whats left of it.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23662&page=7&pp=25
Sanders response to Andrzej Bania
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1814/
Read the emails Sander has posted.
You will see Andrzej offered to start fresh.
You will see subsequently Sander also say the same thing, and then demand an r520 in order to get over this and start anew.
You will notice if you read Sander's massive letter thinger in its entirety that Andrzej is more than vindicated for some of his reactions. This does not in any way excuse Andrzej posts and comments, but it seriously puts doubt on Sander's very own claims. He shot himself in the foot by posting his own emails. I wonder if he even checked what he put together because it does nothing to help his case.
I wonder why nvnews hasnt been invited. :D
I wonder if Mike can say? :D
We qualify, we're an Nvidia fan site. :D
We qualify, we're THE Nvidia fan site. :D
I edited your post :cool:
We rank higher than others ;)
Just an oversight....I thought everyone knew?
oldsk00l
09-20-05, 01:27 AM
Oldsk00l did you read more of that thread where Andrzej Bania shows how he can lower himself quite low too. Sander also has a response and it seems ATI cut him off for 6 months because of the few articles he wrote which were critical of ATI and his failure to show up for an event he was invited to. Ati would after 6 months re evaluate their relationship. Do you think The Whitehouse should ban ABC CBS NBC MSN FOX and all the other press that didnt say what they would like to hear for 6 months then re evaluate them to see if there ready to play nice. Good god what a mess!! All over benchmarks that came with a disclaimer and should have been taken as unverified. It seems Ati should have made a statement saying they dont believe the benchmarks are accurate and moved on trying to produce their late offerings. Instead ati, a huge professional company sets out to roll in the mud with Sander. Why?? I geuss ati had to answer as the fanboys were haveing anurisms over the fact unverified benchmarks were showing the r520 may not be as great as their expectations. The whole thing stinks from all sides.. But to blindly believe Ati PR guru Andrzej Bania story as the whole story is just silly. I geuss one good thing we found out is no xt's for 6 to 8 weeks. Ati and Sander trying to strongarm one another didnt need to be made into public laundry. Ive visited Hardware Analysis on occasion to read reviews and have never seen anything to make me believe he was bias or out to slander Ati or fudgeing of benchmarks. Like I said they both look like kids rolling in the mud, but I have enough sense to know theres always 2 stories and the truth usually lies with the mixture of those 2 stories.
Beyond 3d thread or at least whats left of it.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23662&page=7&pp=25
Sanders response to Andrzej Bania
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1814/
I don't expect Andrzej to run this thing without a ton of fluff. Fact is though, Sanders shot himself in the foot bigtime and made an ass of himself. Sanders went totally beyond rationale and tact when he started with his whole "I'm l33t, and I'm going to hurt ATI because they acted like bitches!!!". That's not the attitude to have, bottom line. It's childish, and it's below the belt, and besides there's a word for that kind of ****, it's "asshat".
It's like the 3 year old stomping his feet and yelling because he's got entitlement issues.
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