X1800 XT/Pro Review

[weeds]

Read the emails Sander has posted.

You will see Andrzej offered to start fresh.

You will see subsequently Sander also say the same thing, and then demand an r520 in order to get over this and start anew.

You will notice if you read Sander's massive letter thinger in its entirety that Andrzej is more than vindicated for some of his reactions. This does not in any way excuse Andrzej posts and comments, but it seriously puts doubt on Sander's very own claims. He shot himself in the foot by posting his own emails. I wonder if he even checked what he put together because it does nothing to help his case.


I read them. Yes he offered to start a new, next year after the 6 months of being cut off. Ati was tiffed because of the article on crossfire etc. Im not defending Sander he had an ax to grind, but I might to if I cant freely write articles for fear of being cut off if I say something not to ati's likeing. That kind of strongarming is not a good thing in the least and negates the reason for a free press, which is what we depend on to make informed decisions.
Thats what gets me upset. As far as demanding an r520 I cant tell that at all,
he could be kidding or dead serious with no exclamation point or question marks or icons to show some context of what he's saying I just cant make that judgment. I think they are both to blame for this and they didnt need to dump their dirty laundry on us. Ati shouldn't strong arm reviewers because they dont like some critical press, or because a reviewer declines a particular
interview or misses an event for personal reasons. Sander should have left his anger at Ati to himself and just posted his benchmarks with his disclaimer.
And I do take what Sander says with a grain of salt, and I certainly take what Ati PR guru Andrzej Bania says with a grain of salt also. I do think its odd a billion dollar company would go to the lenghts they have to discredit one guy on the internet thats full of sketchy unverified benchmarks and articles. All's Ati needed to say is we believe the benchmarks are incorrect and youll see the real r520 benchmarks soon. I would hope you too would be upset over the strong arm attempts on both sides, as we depend on honesty
from corporations and the press to make informed decisions on the products offered and reviewed and ultimatly purchased by us. I dont believe either of them are vindicated on any level. The way theyve acted and tried to push each other around would only end up hurting we consumers.

[oldsk00l]

I read them. Yes he offered to start a new, next year after the 6 months of being cut off. Ati was tiffed because of the article on crossfire etc. Im not defending Sander he had an ax to grind, but I might to if I cant freely write articles for fear of being cut off if I say something not to ati's likeing. That kind of strongarming is not a good thing in the least and negates the reason for a free press, which is what we depend on to make informed decisions.
Thats what gets me upset. As far as demanding an r520 I cant tell that at all,
he could be kidding or dead serious with no exclamation point or question marks or icons to show some context of what he's saying I just cant make that judgment. I think they are both to blame for this and they didnt need to dump their dirty laundry on us. Ati shouldn't strong arm reviewers because they dont like some critical press, or because a reviewer declines a particular
interview or misses an event for personal reasons. Sander should have left his anger at Ati to himself and just posted his benchmarks with his disclaimer.
And I do take what Sander says with a grain of salt, and I certainly take what Ati PR guru Andrzej Bania says with a grain of salt also. I do think its odd a billion dollar company would go to the lenghts they have to discredit one guy on the internet thats full of sketchy unverified benchmarks and articles. All's Ati needed to say is we believe the benchmarks are incorrect and youll see the real r520 benchmarks soon. I would hope you too would be upset over the strong arm attempts on both sides, as we depend on honesty
from corporations and the press to make informed decisions on the products offered and reviewed and ultimatly purchased by us. I dont believe either of them are vindicated on any level. The way theyve acted and tried to push each other around would only end up hurting we consumers.

right right right

but from the emails Sanders posted, he did act like a dick...and that's really why Andrzej cut him off

[weeds]

I don't expect Andrzej to run this thing without a ton of fluff. Fact is though, Sanders shot himself in the foot bigtime and made an ass of himself. Sanders went totally beyond rationale and tact when he started with his whole "I'm l33t, and I'm going to hurt ATI because they acted like bitches!!!". That's not the attitude to have, bottom line. It's childish, and it's below the belt, and besides there's a word for that kind of ****, it's "asshat".

It's like the 3 year old stomping his feet and yelling because he's got entitlement issues.

Agreed but Thats not my point at all. No doubt both are acting stupid. But I understand how Sander as a member of the free press feels like he's being strongarmed to not report anything negetive towards ati or he will be blacklisted. I think ati started this with the cutting off of Sander for writing unflattering articles towards ati, and its completly snowballed from there. How can you not be upset at ati about that? If theirs a problem with hardware or a driver problem dont you want to know that before you plunk down your hard earned money? Do you want a reviewer sitting in front of his PC thinkin now if I write this article will I still be able to get the next latest and greatest card from ati? I dont give a **** whos acting like a little kid, THEY BOTH ARE. I want standards, I want reviewers to be able to write freely without fear of retaliation. Ati blacklisting a reviewer for being critical of ati is soo ****ed up!! I dont know whats so hard to understand about that. Sander was blacklisted before this review and the childish crap was presented to us. I guess its okay for ati to influence the people we depend on for reviews. Ill say it one more time they are both acting just shamefully.

[Sazar]

I read them. Yes he offered to start a new, next year after the 6 months of being cut off. Ati was tiffed because of the article on crossfire etc. Im not defending Sander he had an ax to grind, but I might to if I cant freely write articles for fear of being cut off if I say something not to ati's likeing. That kind of strongarming is not a good thing in the least and negates the reason for a free press, which is what we depend on to make informed decisions.

Sander repeatedly made it a point to demand an r520, even in the last email as a condition for renewed relations amongst other things

That is strong-arming. You will clearly see that in the other emails from Andrzeg, there is nothing that says that Sanders cannot post what he wants to.

Thats what gets me upset. As far as demanding an r520 I cant tell that at all, he could be kidding or dead serious with no exclamation point or question marks or icons to show some context of what he's saying I just cant make that judgment. I think they are both to blame for this and they didnt need to dump their dirty laundry on us. Ati shouldn't strong arm reviewers because they dont like some critical press, or because a reviewer declines a particular interview or misses an event for personal reasons. Sander should have left his anger at Ati to himself and just posted his benchmarks with his disclaimer.

Those benchies should not have been published in the first place. There is nothing to corroborate the work other than the emails from Sander saying the AIB decided to conduct the benchies after sympathising with him when they saw the correspondance between him and ati.

If you have read Sanders previous comments about the integrity of these kinds of things in the past, you will see just how hypocritical a position this happens to be. You might want to dig up his lovely email to Thomas Pabst a coupla years ago.

And I do take what Sander says with a grain of salt, and I certainly take what Ati PR guru Andrzej Bania says with a grain of salt also. I do think its odd a billion dollar company would go to the lenghts they have to discredit one guy on the internet thats full of sketchy unverified benchmarks and articles. All's Ati needed to say is we believe the benchmarks are incorrect and youll see the real r520 benchmarks soon. I would hope you too would be upset over the strong arm attempts on both sides, as we depend on honesty
from corporations and the press to make informed decisions on the products offered and reviewed and ultimatly purchased by us. I dont believe either of them are vindicated on any level. The way theyve acted and tried to push each other around would only end up hurting we consumers.

There is a little bit more that occured between the time the "benchies" were released and the time Ati had any kind of response.

I am surprised so many people here are blaming ati for this. If the situation were reversed, would everyone vindicate Sanders as much for doing this with nvidia's work?

FWIW, from both the guys emails and both their comments, the only strong-arming I am seeing is from sanders, even with his own reply he shoots himself in the foot.

[weeds]

right right right

but from the emails Sanders posted, he did act like a dick...and that's really why Andrzej cut him off


Wow, Im a construction superintentent and am currently on a job overseeing 42 construction workers and you want to talk about dicks. I deal with asshats every day. If Sander was blacklisted for being a dick thats extremly childish on Andrzej part, I mean I can understand being blacklisted because of critical press being a business decision (I dont agree with this as you know) but I understand PR and you snuggle up to the kindest press, but because someones a dick?? Grow up Andrzej lifes full of dickheads and you have to deal with them in any business. I dont believe thats why he was cutoff anyway. It makes more sense from a business PR standpoint to blacklist some press thats critical of you than to blacklist someone for being a dick. I think Andrzej is smarter than that, but maybe not.

[DEaD_IRiS]

Sanders probably is an ass, but ATI has to take the high road, period.

I find it hard to believe that Bania is in PR. This is a PR nightmare and didn't need to be.

My guess is Bania will be taking that long vacation.

[retsam]

I dont believe thats why he was cutoff anyway. It makes more sense from a business PR standpoint to blacklist some press thats critical of you than to blacklist someone for being a dick. I think Andrzej is smarter than that, but maybe not. if ATI is so curtain of there products superiority, then wouldnt you want to send it to your critics? i think the r520 is on par with the gtx ...thats why ATI is out doing damage control right now....

[oldsk00l]

Wow, Im a construction superintentent and am currently on a job overseeing 42 construction workers and you want to talk about dicks. I deal with asshats every day. If Sander was blacklisted for being a dick thats extremly childish on Andrzej part, I mean I can understand being blacklisted because of critical press being a business decision (I dont agree with this as you know) but I understand PR and you snuggle up to the kindest press, but because someones a dick?? Grow up Andrzej lifes full of dickheads and you have to deal with them in any business. I dont believe thats why he was cutoff anyway. It makes more sense from a business PR standpoint to blacklist some press thats critical of you than to blacklist someone for being a dick. I think Andrzej is smarter than that, but maybe not.

See, Andrzej is doing his JOB, and his job entails not working with dicks if he can avoid it. Big difference, and Sanders really screwed the pooch by blowing this all out into the open...and frankly embarassing himself.

This throws into question all of his reviews and editorials, and statements like you're going to screw with stock price because ur sooper l33tness will influence people to make ATI suck is insulting not to ATI...but to all of US also.

[BrianG]

The end question remains why ATI just didn't say - "We refuse to coment on unreleased products. Please wait for official reviews using release hardware and drivers."

If the hardware is as good as ATI says it is, the benchmarks of release cards will be enough to do whatever damage Andrzej's rant at B3D intended to do. Two sentences, no response, no rebuttal.

[skoprowski]

if ATI is so curtain of there products superiority, then wouldnt you want to send it to your critics? i think the r520 is on par with the gtx ...thats why ATI is out doing damage control right now....

You're exactly right........if the 520 was so fast ATI would be worring about things right now.

[oldsk00l]

The end question remains whay ATI just didn't say - "We refuse to coment on unreleased products. Please wait for official reviews using release hardware and drivers."

If the hardware is as good as ATI says it is, the benchmarks of release cards will be enough to do whatever damage Andrzej's rant at B3D intended to do. Two sentences, no response, no rebuttal.

Actually, you're spot on.

Which...alludes to another possibility.....

ATI might be trying to discredit Sanders at this point. If the product can speak for itself, two sentences is all that's needed.

[skoprowski]

I also think that if the 520 is so much faster than why do they think they could convince X800 oowners to buy a Crossfire X800 master card in a few weeks? Maybe because the 520 is not much faster than a X800.

Wouldn't you all think it would be silly for Nvidia to debut a 7800GTX two weeks after a 6800GT/Ultra SLI setup is debuted?

[oldsk00l]

I also think that if the 520 is so much faster than why do they think they could convince X800 oowners to buy a Crossfire X800 master card in a few weeks? Maybe because the 520 is not much faster than a X800.

Wouldn't you all think it would be silly for Nvidia to debut a 7800GTX two weeks after a 6800GT/Ultra SLI setup is debuted?

Yeah because it costs more money than it's likely worth, given the GTX is as good as two 6800's for better or for worse.

[skoprowski]

Yeah because it costs more money than it's likely worth, given the GTX is as good as two 6800's for better or for worse.

So why would ATI debut X800 Crossifire 2 weeks before the 520 if the 520 was as fast or faster than the X800 Crossfire? Maybe because it isn't......

[oldsk00l]

So why would ATI debut X800 Crossifire 2 weeks before the 520 if the 520 was as fast or faster than the X800 Crossfire? Maybe because it isn't......

Ya know, that's a good question. If a single R520 can't keep up to snuff with an X800 crossfire setup...then ATI's got some issues.

That, and you would NEVER catch ANYONE from nVidia muttering a peep about an upcoming product. nVidia managed to keep pretty much everyone in-house pretty damn quiet prior to the 7800 launch...er..rather retail stocking. Pretty damn impressive I should say...ATI has yet to do that.

[Dazz]

if ATI is so curtain of there products superiority, then wouldnt you want to send it to your critics? i think the r520 is on par with the gtx ...thats why ATI is out doing damage control right now....
They can't do that as it's unannounced products you an't even sopost to even know about it but information gets leaks and **** like this happens.
If they shipped samples to reviews then that would mean announcing the cards and would also mean a paper launch which ATi doesn't want to do this time.

[gordon151]

The end question remains why ATI just didn't say - "We refuse to coment on unreleased products. Please wait for official reviews using release hardware and drivers."

If the hardware is as good as ATI says it is, the benchmarks of release cards will be enough to do whatever damage Andrzej's rant at B3D intended to do. Two sentences, no response, no rebuttal.

Reading the early replies to this thread and a number of similar ones across multiple forums pretty much explains why they did what they did. The fact that it could have very well also lost them sales (to eager buyers whom were leaning towards the GTX already) and could have negatively affected their stock price are other factors.

[macatak]

Just checked out some scores with 7800GT v X1800XL and Sanders scores seem to be spot on in Doom3, Splinter Cell, HL2

[Shocky]

I am really impressed with the cards performance, allot of people were expecting it to be slower and they were very wrong. In directx appz with newer drivers I’m sure they will get allot more performance out of the 1800xt even in opengl... Only things that put me off with this card are the noise, power consumption, 2 slot cooler, poor opengl performance and the price... so I think they might have problems attracting buyers which aren’t hardcore ati fanboys.

But money no object id take a 1800xt over a single GTX atm even with the reduced opengl performance :o

[zer0]

Shocky = ATi FanBoy? :)

[Shocky]

Shocky = ATi FanBoy? :)

:D I get called nvidia fanboy at rage3d and ATI fanboy here.. is there no place for objective opinions? :p

But I should have said, ignoring all issues/concerns, and money no object but of course there hard to ignore and theres no way id ever spend £450+ on a single gfx card.

[nexus_alpha]

Nvidia > all

well read this and tell me if you still think the same http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/8887