Ted Kennedy gets a rebuttal while speaking about Katrina

[sonaboy]

"What the American people have seen is this incredible disparity in which those people who had cars and money got out and those people who were impoverished died."
-- Ted Kennedy on Hurricane Katrina

"Ditto"
-- Mary Jo Kopechne

[S.I.N]

"Ditto" means the person agrees not a rebuttal or they disagree.

[Sazar]

"Ditto" means the person agrees not a rebuttal or they disagree.

Thats what I was wondering about as well?

Not like Ted Kennedy is the guy you listen to typically but I am not sure what this is supposed to mean.

[CybrSage]

Was this a surprise to anyone?

Has anyone other than me notice the rich take private jets while I wait at the airport?

Really, if the rich do not get benefits for being rich, then what is the point of being rich?

I wonder how much of his vast fortune Ted Kennedy spent helping the victems of Katrina? I am sure it is not nearly as much as he spent paying off the people who investigated his lover's death.

[Vapor Trail]

"Ditto" means the person agrees not a rebuttal or they disagree.


Uh, Mary Jo isn't agreeing. She's the one who drown in a car crash in 1969 while driving Teddy's car. Teddy didn't report the accident until the next day.

I assume his "ditto" comment refers to the fact that rich Teddy made it out alive while poor Mary Jo was left to drown.

[Sazar]

His choice of word here didn't convey his feelings :)

Cyber did a much better job.

[DaveW]

"What the American people have seen is this incredible disparity in which those people who had cars and money got out and those people who were impoverished died."


Sounds like natural selection to me.

People had enough time to WALK to a safe distance if they could get off their fat lazy asses and actually do it.

[DiscipleDOC]

Sounds like natural selection to me.

People had enough time to WALK to a safe distance if they could get off their fat lazy asses and actually do it.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree. The only fault I see with the government is that they did not provide community transportation in a timely manner. I will not take away ALL the blame away from the people, but they are not TOTALLY to blame for their deaths.

And as far as "natural selection" goes: Who are you to judge who lives and who dies? :wtf:

[oldsk00l]

I'm w/DaveW on this one.

I know it sounds cruel, but getting to safety is ULTIMATELY YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. The "poor and impoverished" have legs, and if they don't have legs, they have wheelchairs, and if they don't have wheelchairs and are disabled it's their own damn fault for not getting one because SSI pays for stuff like that. If they are quadrapalegic it's the hospital's job to take care of it.

Not the gubment's. Yeah I'm for more community transportation being available, but to sit there and die because the bus didn't show up to get you...that's just retarded and there was no one to blame but yourself.

I just don't see it any other way.

After seeing how many 400 pound welfare momma's being airlifted I see it as beneficial. Call me cruel, call me callous, but don't call me racist either. There are just as many white "******s" as there are black ones, and probably just as many 400 pound white welfare mommas as black ones. However, I just don't see it any other way, they were too fat and lazy to get off their asses and lift a finger for themselves, and as far as I'm concerned the windfall will go to benefit people who really need the welfare.

This disaster could have saved billions already. WRT "natural selection" I think it was progressive in at the very least motivating people to take control of their lives. Even though I don't believe in Christ, I do believe in God, and I think this could be providence or an example of his work...and it was God that decided those folks die. imho it was for a good reason, laziness and expecting to be saved.

Vigilance isn't just the price of freedom, it's the price of survival.

[UDawg]

Sounds like natural selection to me.

People had enough time to WALK to a safe distance if they could get off their fat lazy asses and actually do it.
That is a bit to rough for me. This is why I cannot go the route of a evolutionist. People are not something to be "naturaly selected" with. These are people with friends and families.

[sonaboy]

Thats what I was wondering about as well?

Not like Ted Kennedy is the guy you listen to typically but I am not sure what this is supposed to mean.

is everyone here under 20 years old?

you have to know who Mary Jo is...



this is a joke, geniuses...

[UDawg]

is everyone here under 20 years old?

you have to know who Mary Jo is...



this is a joke, geniuses...
Mary Jo is the woman that drowned in the car that Ted Kennedy was driving. I got the joke and then giggled when people correct your use of the word "ditto". Context is everything guys. ;)

[Ninjaman09]

That is a bit to rough for me. This is why I cannot go the route of a evolutionist. People are not something to be "naturaly selected" with. These are people with friends and families.
The entire point of natural selection is weeding out the weak from the strong. It is not controlled by some sentient being. What you are saying is the same as saying you feel it is not nice to say that a fat guy who drinks whiskey all day and chain smokes Pall Malls is going to lose a race to a cross-country runner. It's just an observation of a natural process.

DaveW is right. The impoverished people who died did so because they were out of touch with society, lazy, and apathetic. Other people who died did so because they vastly underestimated the danger posed by the hurricane. Simple as that. If I had no car and had several days warning that a deadly hurricane was headed my way, you'd bet your ass I'd be out the door that instant. People used to get around just fine without cars not too long ago...

[UDawg]

The entire point of natural selection is weeding out the weak from the strong. It is not controlled by some sentient being. What you are saying is the same as saying you feel it is not nice to say that a fat guy who drinks whiskey all day and chain smokes Pall Malls is going to lose a race to a cross-country runner. It's just an observation of a natural process.

DaveW is right. The impoverished people who died did so because they were out of touch with society, lazy, and apathetic. Other people who died did so because they vastly underestimated the danger posed by the hurricane. Simple as that. If I had no car and had several days warning that a deadly hurricane was headed my way, you'd bet your ass I'd be out the door that instant. People used to get around just fine without cars not too long ago...
What I said had nothing to do with a "sentient being" you got my point completely wrong. I have no clue how you got what I said to what you replied with.

I reject the fact that the impoverished people that died were lazy and pathetic. The fact is less people died than what were reported. The most poor did not die in droves as the media said. The argument you are fashioning is based on false media information. People died as a result for poor govenrmental management of a city. Some died from natural causes, only 4 died from being murdered. Nobody expected the level to break and when it did it sweept away people in that immediate area. The rest died from the imdpact of the storm and not all of them were impoverished or lazy.

Your charaterization is terribley cruel and false. Yes there are lazy impoverished people in NO but they were not the only ones who were killed as I pointed out.

[DiscipleDOC]

The entire point of natural selection is weeding out the weak from the strong. It is not controlled by some sentient being. What you are saying is the same as saying you feel it is not nice to say that a fat guy who drinks whiskey all day and chain smokes Pall Malls is going to lose a race to a cross-country runner. It's just an observation of a natural process.

DaveW is right. The impoverished people who died did so because they were out of touch with society, lazy, and apathetic. Other people who died did so because they vastly underestimated the danger posed by the hurricane. Simple as that. If I had no car and had several days warning that a deadly hurricane was headed my way, you'd bet your ass I'd be out the door that instant. People used to get around just fine without cars not too long ago...
If people were rebellious, and did not heed the warning, you're right, they should've perished. The problem is, that no one was told that the hurricane was as bad as it was.

Also, people are more than just a "natural selection" I do not believe you can look in somone's face (as they lay on their bed dying) and say "Sorry, ol' chap...but since you are a weak old fool, you've been naturally selected to die."

People are more than just mere animals that walk upright. When people start seeing it's ok for a group of humans to die, then you've become morally bankrupt.

[DiscipleDOC]

What I said had nothing to do with a "sentient being" you got my point completely wrong. I have no clue how you got what I said to what you replied with.

I reject the fact that the impoverished people that died were lazy and pathetic. The fact is less people died than what were reported. The most poor did not die in droves as the media said. The argument you are fashioning is based on false media information. People died as a result for poor govenrmental management of a city. Some died from natural causes, only 4 died from being murdered. Nobody expected the level to break and when it did it sweept away people in that immediate area. The rest died from the imdpact of the storm and not all of them were impoverished or lazy.

Your charaterization is terribley cruel and false. Yes there are lazy impoverished people in NO but they were not the only ones who were killed as I pointed out.

I think he was referring to me.

[UDawg]

Also, people are more than just a "natural selection" I do not believe you can look in somone's face (as they lay on their bed dying) and say "Sorry, ol' chap...but since you are a weak old fool, you've been naturally selected to die."

People are more than just mere animals that walk upright. When people start seeing it's ok for a group of humans to die, then you've become morally bankrupt.
This is exactly my point.

[Ninjaman09]

If people were rebellious, and did not heed the warning, you're right, they should've perished. The problem is, that no one was told that the hurricane was as bad as it was.
Who is no one? I knew how bad it was just from reading the newspaper several days before it hit the city. This is freely available information anyone could access were they so inclined. It is not society's duty to make sure that each and every inhabitant of the country is caught up on current events.

Also, people are more than just a "natural selection" I do not believe you can look in somone's face (as they lay on their bed dying) and say "Sorry, ol' chap...but since you are a weak old fool, you've been naturally selected to die."
UDawg I will respond to your post regarding the "sentient process" bit here as well. Basically while I agree with what you are saying, of course the value of human life is of utmost importance, this is rhetoric. You make it sound as if we are suggesting that these people were deserving of death or something. Not at all. We are merely observing that due to factors within their control they perished. Obviously this does not apply to everyone who was killed. Again "natural selection" is a description for a process that can be observed, it is not a "rule" or anything. Just like a bear catches and eats a fish, a hurricane devastates coastal civilization. The victim in both cases is ill equipped to defend itself, hence, the aggressor "wins". This is a pretty bad analogy but you get my drift, hopefully.

People are more than just mere animals that walk upright. When people start seeing it's ok for a group of humans to die, then you've become morally bankrupt.
You read something into my post and possibly DaveW's that simply isn't there. We certainly did not say that it is "OK" that people died. We simply said that the reasons they died in many cases were factors that they had control over. In other words, they died needlessly due to their own laziness/apathy/lack of education/whatever.
I reject the fact that the impoverished people that died were lazy and pathetic.
I used that as an example to illustrate my point, not as a blanket statement about the hurricane victims. But if you had a pair of working legs and a two day head start, and knew a deadly hurricane was approaching, are you telling me you'd just stand there and wait for it?
The argument you are fashioning is based on false media information.
You're assuming far too much about what I'm saying. I'm well aware that pretty much everything the media has said is utter BS. I am simply observing that some of the victims who died did so needlessly. I never said there were people dying in droves or anything of the sort.

You've latched on to me here with a death grip and are straw-manning me like crazy. Is it because I used the term "natural selection"? OK, forget I ever said it. We'll strike that from the record. But everything else I said I stand by, and I am still puzzling over these conclusions you have arrived at. Please do not assume things about my views and morals simply because I do not share your religious beliefs. If you are wondering where that comes from, it's from "Also, people are more than just a "natural selection" " or "People are more than just mere animals that walk upright. ". Though I never even hinted that I felt otherwise, you came out with this right off the bat and it seems to me that you think that I consider humans to be on the same level as any other species or something. That's just not true.

[UDawg]

UDawg I will respond to your post regarding the "sentient process" bit here as well. Basically while I agree with what you are saying, of course the value of human life is of utmost importance, this is rhetoric. You make it sound as if we are suggesting that these people were deserving of death or something. Not at all. We are merely observing that due to factors within their control they perished. Obviously this does not apply to everyone who was killed. Again "natural selection" is a description for a process that can be observed, it is not a "rule" or anything. Just like a bear catches and eats a fish, a hurricane devastates coastal civilization. The victim in both cases is ill equipped to defend itself, hence, the aggressor "wins". This is a pretty bad analogy but you get my drift, hopefully.
I learned what natural selection was in Jr. High. I was a biology major. :D Though you wouldn't know it. LOL

I still am confused about the sentient being comment though.

You read something into my post and possibly DaveW's that simply isn't there. We certainly did not say that it is "OK" that people died. We simply said that the reasons they died in many cases were factors that they had control over. In other words, they died needlessly due to their own laziness/apathy/lack of education/whatever.
We read your post correctly, that is why we responded the way we did.

You're assuming far too much about what I'm saying. I'm well aware that pretty much everything the media has said is utter BS. I am simply observing that some of the victims who died did so needlessly. I never said there were people dying in droves or anything of the sort.
That was my point. It was only a tiny few where were impoverished and were as you stated. I mean a very tiny few.

You've latched on to me here with a death grip and are straw-manning me like crazy. Is it because I used the term "natural selection"? OK, forget I ever said it. We'll strike that from the record. But everything else I said I stand by, and I am still puzzling over these conclusions you have arrived at.
It's not a death grip. I am calm but puzzled. It is only the hearlessness with which you discribed these people that caught me off guard.

Anyway it isn't that big a deal. I understand what you are saying. I just wanted to argue because this board has been slow the last few days. We need some excitement. So your are nominated as the buttmonkeh for today.

[Riptide]

Walking out was not necessarily as easy as some of you make it out to be. There was a huge thread over on ars about this and while I disagree with some of what was in there they made good points here. Just where were they supposed to walk to? On foot you aren't going to get THAT far away in 2-3 days. Before you even think about setting out on foot you need to have a firm destination in mind and a shelter to get to. Getting caught out in the open by a hurricane isn't any smarter than staying at home. Not to mention the fact that some people (elderly, disabled, young) weren't able to walk or move very far on their own in the first place.

[sonaboy]

Walking out was not necessarily as easy as some of you make it out to be. There was a huge thread over on ars about this and while I disagree with some of what was in there they made good points here. Just where were they supposed to walk to? On foot you aren't going to get THAT far away in 2-3 days. Before you even think about setting out on foot you need to have a firm destination in mind and a shelter to get to. Getting caught out in the open by a hurricane isn't any smarter than staying at home. Not to mention the fact that some people (elderly, disabled, young) weren't able to walk or move very far on their own in the first place.


yep - anyone ever driven to NOLA?
from the north, it's a 4-6 lane bridge with no shoulder for miles and miles. and since they didn't know which area the storm would actually make landfall on, going west and east were for the more courageous.
they had one day to move that many people after the mandatory evac was announced on a 4 lane bridge...that's a nightmare of logistics when you count in cars running out of gas, breaking down, overheating, etc.

i'm sure some people just decided to take their chances.

[Ninjaman09]

It's not a death grip. I am calm but puzzled. It is only the hearlessness with which you discribed these people that caught me off guard.
Well you can choose to see it that way but that isn't what I meant. I can't say any more than that.

Anyway it isn't that big a deal. I understand what you are saying. I just wanted to argue because this board has been slow the last few days. We need some excitement. So your are nominated as the buttmonkeh for today.
LOL sorry I can't oblige you, I'm kinda tired of arguing actually. Plus I just got home to find out that my friggin AC is busted and I can't do anything about it until tomorrow, so it's going to be a long, sleepless, sweaty night ahead and not the good kind. And I'm already running on fumes. :surrender

[UDawg]

Dude, you suck. Brotha can't get NO joy here today.

[Ninjaman09]

That AxlRose guy is talking trash in the polar ice caps thread, you could try to get on his nerves. :o

[Tygerwoody]

I swear these hurricane threads are making my head hurt. So many pointed fingers. What is so hard to believe about this just being a bad situation? I've lived in North Carolina, right on the coast. We "waited out" hurricanes sometimes. It might sound stupid, but we did it. Its not as bad as it seems. I really hate it when everyone is like "god those people are stupid for not leaving" or "its bush's fault" or "its the governors fault".

These people did not know this was going to happen in the extent it did. They figured it would just blow by. I know the feeling as I have done it before. Granted, New Orleans is a different situation geographically from North Carolina, but NC also gets hit with ALOT more. I was lucky, they were not.

We can all sit here and say "i would have left", "if i had to, i would have walked out", but you know what you wouldn't and you are stupid for making such rediculous remarks. Sure you might have left, but you don't KNOW a damn thing. In every hurricane you are taking a risk. No matter how big or small the hurricane is. What is so hard to comprehend about this? :confused: :confused: