Catholic Church no longer swears Bible to be all true

[Jazzy jeff]

I found the verse I was looking for the other day. It's Job ch.38 - God is speaking to Job asking him if he was there when he laid the foundations of the earth and then it goes on to say when the morning stars sang together and the sons of god shouted for joy... it may be reaching to say these were the angels present at creation, but its the closest I can find.

[CybrSage]

No it doesn't. Angels are not human. They are created by God for God. Creation does not need the story of the creation of angels to be take 100% serious. It stands on its own. You either believe it or you don't. The reason Genisis talks about man is that man is God's favored creation because of our free will. We chose to believe in God the angels had no choice. They know God and they believe in Him. Satan believes in God but he wanted to be God.

When we die we do not become angels. We recieve our resurection body which is new.


Oh, I do believe the story. I just do not take it 100% literal. A day is not a 24 hour cycle in the story, it is an era of time. The angels were created, just not mentioned in the creation story because they were irrelevant.

[Son Goku]

A day is a 24 hour time period. They may not have had clocks back in the day, but the sun still came up and then it went down- not a difficult concept. I dont understand how someone can call themself a Christian and yet deny the very foundation of the Bible- Creation. Creation sets forth the greatness and power of God and the beginning of mankind. I guess I show my 'intelligence' by believing my great grandparents were monkeys and that the world magically created itself over billions of years. :eek:

One would really have to look at how we came up with a day as being a 24 slice of time. This is based on conventions that we have set, concerning conditions that exist here on Earth. But a "day" is really relative. First and fore most it is relative to the planet one is counting it on. A Mercurian day, or a day on Jupiter would not necessarily be the same as an Earth day, as those bodies don't make a complete rotation around their axis in the same amount of time it takes Earth.

Put another way, if an alien were on a planet in another solar system, there is no reason to assume they would have developed the same notion of time we would have, their planet must have the same length of day as we do, or that they wouldn't have defined their given definition for the dimension of time, relative to what is appropriate where they are. We only see/define a day the way we do, because of how long it takes Earth to rotate on it's axis (actually 24 hours is more an approximation, then an exact value), and because of the conventions we have set in the culture we live in...

So now if one were to talk about a being who is infinite/eternal, and isn't confined to space/time, then what would a day really be?

One thing holds common, regardless of where one happens to be. A day would be a certain cycle of time, though how long that cycle is or how it's counted could differ.

As to people saying the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, people do have geology on their side...

[Ancient]

A day is a 24 hour time period. They may not have had clocks back in the day, but the sun still came up and then it went down- not a difficult concept. I dont understand how someone can call themself a Christian and yet deny the very foundation of the Bible- Creation. Creation sets forth the greatness and power of God and the beginning of mankind. I guess I show my 'intelligence' by believing my great grandparents were monkeys and that the world magically created itself over billions of years. :eek:
The time period of a complete day has actually changed throughout the history of the Earth. Long ago the Earth's day was as short as 18 hours. It has changed as the Earth's rotation is steadily slowing down little-by-little. It's a very gradual process but a well-known and documentated phenomena. Additionally the moon is slowly moving away from the Earth (Gravitational forces from moon is what is causing the Earth's rotation to slow.) at a rate of, iirc, 10 centimeters a year. Over time this is going to greatly affect life on Earth because the moon's gravitational influences will lessen and we won't have tides at the same intensity any longer. Tidal forces are very influential on life on this planet.

As to your comment about the world creating itself, that's pretty much a mis-statement of what actually happens. Astronomy and astrophysics have provided some pretty solid evidence now for the birth of stars and the formations of solar systems. We can be pretty sure it happens that way, though we don't know each and every detail yet. Is there a hand that guides that process somewhat or a being that initially set this all in motion? Well that's up to each and every one of us to look at the world around us and decide for ourselves. At this point I don't think we know enough about the universe to decide who's right and who is wrong on that account.

[DaveW]

If you do take it literally some parts raise some obvious questions...

God doesn't need 6 days to create anything. He's all powerful. That means every task is infinitely simple for him. Making the entire universe and everything in it is no more difficult than making a cup of coffee. Since to imply one task is more difficult than another implies that there is a limit on what God can do, and there is not. So why would he bother taking 6 days to do it? He could just snap his fingers and it all happens. Or he could just set everything in motion from a single point in time and sit back and watch the show. Either way is better than starting a project, then leaving it partly finished and coming back to it in the morning - six days in a row. What was he doing? waiting for the drywall mud to dry? Did he need to go to Home Depot in the morning to pick up some deck mates? Was someone paying him hourly? Did he just say "ah fux it, thats enough work for one day, ill come back to it morning!"

Also, why would he make Eve from one of Adams ribs? Us human beings are pretty close to being able to do something similar from just a tiny sample of stem cells from the bone marrow. We don't need to remove an entire rib, why would God? Come to think of it he wouldn't need stem cells at all, he could just snap his fingers. No surgery necessary.

I think its obviously a fable and you are not meant to take it all literally. You shouldn't do that with an English translation anyway. The Aramaic word for rib meant "side" or "flank" I think it may also have meant "to cut" but i'm not sure. Any way, how can you take it literally, when very meaning of the words of the literature have changed in the past 2000 years over several translations? The original overall meaning of the text is still there, but its bold assuming you know exactly what a specific word means.

[Zelda_fan]

Maybe he created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th to establish a precident that we should only work 6 days a week. Makes sense to me.

Maybe he created woman from man's rib to establish that man is the one that should be in charge. Makes sense to me.

[netviper13]

Maybe he created woman from man's rib to establish that man is the one that should be in charge. Makes sense to me.

I feel very sorry for whomever you marry...

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I feel very sorry for whomever you marry...

I dunno...when women wear the pants, I tend to feel sorry for the kids.

[Sazar]

I dunno...when women wear the pants, I tend to feel sorry for the kids.

I dunno, when they wear HOT pants, I tend to feel happy for me. Does depend on the girl and how hot those pants be :afro:

Wrt women, human-kind was very matriarchal in its early days of existence, why the push towards a more patriarchal setup? The rib thing seems part of a long series of other actions. Makes sense to me :angel:

[sytaylor]

Maybe he created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th to establish a precident that we should only work 6 days a week. Makes sense to me.

Maybe he created woman from man's rib to establish that man is the one that should be in charge. Makes sense to me.

Maybe since in eden A'n'A were tempted by a serpent, so we should exterminates all the serpents in the world. Makes sense to me.

[Jazzy jeff]

Wow, someone should start an Evolution thread! Whether a day is 18 hours or 30 hours its still a day and not an eon of time. The monthly and yearly cycles can all be learned from studying the stars and seasons. But the weekly cycle is unique. God could have created everything in one second, but he chose to do it the way he did to set up the week, which hasen't changed in over 6000 years- notice I did not say 6 billion, because if the world were really that old it would have vaporized long ago!

[CybrSage]

In every marriage, one of the two partners must have a dominant role. This is a very needed thing. Yes, the two should discuss everything, input is important. What happens if a desicion has to be made, but the two partners disagree on what it should be? One of the two will have to have the power to make the final decision.

Man is to be the head of the household. Woman is to be his helper. This does not mean man is to be a cruel dictator. Man is to love his wife as he loves God. Woman is to respect her man as she respects God.

Man is to have the final authority in the marriage, but he is to also have the final responsibility as well. It is his fault when things go bad, because he is in charge.

The problem is that men stopped taking responsibility, so women started taking authority, and thus we have one of the reasons everthing is messed up today in the family.

[sytaylor]

if the world were really that old it would have vaporized long ago!

Source? (and don't say the bible). We already have an evolution thread, wade into it on search. It's about 30 pages long and contains 1/3rd of my spleen, a good amount of liver and some kidneys...

[Sazar]

Wow, someone should start an Evolution thread! Whether a day is 18 hours or 30 hours its still a day and not an eon of time. The monthly and yearly cycles can all be learned from studying the stars and seasons. But the weekly cycle is unique. God could have created everything in one second, but he chose to do it the way he did to set up the week, which hasen't changed in over 6000 years- notice I did not say 6 billion, because if the world were really that old it would have vaporized long ago!

I too would love to see evidence of the 6000 years claim here.

[DaveW]

The week is a man-made imaginary concept. Its not based on any astronomical cycle (unlike days and years).

The 7 day week we use is the Roman one, and is based on their Gods - Jupiter, Saturn, Mars etc and the sun and the moon.

We have Saturday for Saturn, Sunday for the sun, Monday for the Moon etc. Other days also translate into Mars, Jupiter etc, but the words have been twisted so much over time that they don't much resemble the original Gods names they were based on.

There is no Godday or JesusDay or YahwehDay or MosesDay. The name of Sunday implies that this is a day to worship the Sun God, not the Christian one :)

Also it hasn't always been 7 days. The Egyptians had a 10 day week. The Myans had a 13 day week. The Soviet union had a 5 day week.

[Son Goku]

Wow, someone should start an Evolution thread! Whether a day is 18 hours or 30 hours its still a day and not an eon of time. The monthly and yearly cycles can all be learned from studying the stars and seasons. But the weekly cycle is unique. God could have created everything in one second, but he chose to do it the way he did to set up the week, which hasen't changed in over 6000 years- notice I did not say 6 billion, because if the world were really that old it would have vaporized long ago!

I really do have to question something which is based off a claim of a 6,000 year Earth, when all the geologic processes indicate that it can take millions of years for certain geologic phenomina to have occured.

But as to time; it amounts to the fact that time is relative. It isn't an absolute... We're talking about human measures of time, which happen to make sense because of certain conditions here on Earth. Measures of time are also set up as a matter of convention, in time as much as whether we use metric or the English standard system (that the English don't even use anymore), etc. But those conditions aren't of necessity universal to every planet and every body in space.

A God, as suggested here, would be a God of the whole universe, and not just Earth itself. If things were based off another body in space, then the movement of the stars and other bodies would be different relative to that other body... But here's the thing:

- Against the backdrop of the whole universe, Earth is but one small dot. Against the backdrop of the grand scheme of things, this small blue dot is not necessarily "that important". It's convenient for us to count time the way we do, but that doesn't mean another being, should we find one on another planet would count things the way we do.

Consider a race that has an average life span of 10,000 Earth years. Now whether this is 10,000 of their own years would be another story altogether... If they were to look at us here on Earth, how would our lives seem to them? For all we know, if each of us were born at the same moment, in the about 74-86 years that we might on average live, they might be learning their first word, or how to crawl... Against the backdrop of their own species, we might seem to die as fast as flies seem to die relative to our own... Would a lifetime that's over 100 times longer then ours change their perspective any? Perhaps...

- What meaning would time, as we count it have to a being that is both infinite and eternal, being in no way confined to space/time itself? Time has a meaning to us, because we need to know when to get up to go to work and stuff...but against the backdrop of eternity?

Even from our own perspective, it's easy to get "lost in time", or for time to "seem different". AKA, bored out of one's mind, and a moment can seem an eternity. Having fun, how many have ended up playing one of their computer games all night, and saw it was daylight outside already with an "oh crap, I got to go to work/school, whatever"?

Don't have the exact verse from the Bible, but something to the effect of "with God a day can be a thousand years, and a thousand years like unto a day". That which is immortal is not necessarily "thinking" in terms of "what time will seem like" on that one small blue dot in space once it's all created :angel:

[CybrSage]

The week is a man-made imaginary concept. Its not based on any astronomical cycle (unlike days and years).

The 7 day week we use is the Roman one, and is based on their Gods - Jupiter, Saturn, Mars etc and the sun and the moon.

We have Saturday for Saturn, Sunday for the sun, Monday for the Moon etc. Other days also translate into Mars, Jupiter etc, but the words have been twisted so much over time that they don't much resemble the original Gods names they were based on.

There is no Godday or JesusDay or YahwehDay or MosesDay. The name of Sunday implies that this is a day to worship the Sun God, not the Christian one :)

Also it hasn't always been 7 days. The Egyptians had a 10 day week. The Myans had a 13 day week. The Soviet union had a 5 day week.

Thursday is named after Thor...Thorsday..

[Ninjaman09]

Wow, someone should start an Evolution thread! Whether a day is 18 hours or 30 hours its still a day and not an eon of time. The monthly and yearly cycles can all be learned from studying the stars and seasons. But the weekly cycle is unique. God could have created everything in one second, but he chose to do it the way he did to set up the week, which hasen't changed in over 6000 years- notice I did not say 6 billion, because if the world were really that old it would have vaporized long ago!
LOL you're a complete idiot (this comment was out of line), welcome to my ignore list.

[UDawg]

LOL you're a complete idiot, welcome to my ignore list.
WOW! Your out of line here. Way out of line.

[Zelda_fan]

I feel very sorry for whomever you marry...

oh come on, I didn't mean it like that. The Bible pretty clearly says that men should be in charge when it comes to the relationship, but with leadership comes responsbility. In other words, just becasue you are in charge dosen't give you a right to mistreat your wife. I personally believe women should be treated with the utmost respect, I just think men should be the authority figure.

[Ninjaman09]

WOW! Your out of line here. Way out of line.
How? The dude's a friggin flamebaiter and nothing more. None of his posts have any substance, he's just trolling for an argument and throwing out inflammatory rantings. So right back at you, Jazzy. :thumbsup:

No different than me going around saying, "Wow let's start a Creationism thread! Only takes a genius to believe that man was created by some imaginary magic man in the sky and that the world is 6 billion years old!", get my point?

[Zelda_fan]

Wow, someone should start an Evolution thread! Whether a day is 18 hours or 30 hours its still a day and not an eon of time. The monthly and yearly cycles can all be learned from studying the stars and seasons. But the weekly cycle is unique. God could have created everything in one second, but he chose to do it the way he did to set up the week, which hasen't changed in over 6000 years- notice I did not say 6 billion, because if the world were really that old it would have vaporized long ago!

Well even though you and I share the same opinion, to quote from evilchris the other day, you're bringing a wiffelbat to a gunbattle.

[UDawg]

How? The dude's a friggin flamebaiter and nothing more. None of his posts have any substance, he's just trolling for an argument and throwing out inflammatory rantings. So right back at you, Jazzy. :thumbsup:
If they don't have substance then fine but I don't see him as a troll at all. I have been following this discussion and I haven't seen anything inflammatory from him unless I missed something and that is possible. Either way you are still out of line. Just saying right back at you doesn't mean much since I'm not out of line.

I will go a step further, you just don't like what he is saying and it pisses you off. This is a completely subjective conversation in this thread. It is very different than talking about the economy. You guys go nuts every time we Christians talk about creation. You get nasty and start to put us down. I see the same thing happening here.

[Ninjaman09]

If they don't have substance then fine but I don't see him as a troll at all. I have been following this discussion and I haven't seen anything inflammatory from him unless I missed something and that is possible. Either way you are still out of line. Just saying right back at you doesn't mean much since I'm not out of line.
Look I'm not going to explain every bit of it. Basically what he is doing is typical flamebaiting for this sort of topic. Rile up the "darwinists" in an attempt to have a little fun. My "back at you" was directed at him, hence, "right back at you, Jazzy".

With that said my "you're an idiot" comment was out of line. But I'm not sorry for it. Anyway it's moot as he is on my ignore list. End of story.

[UDawg]

Look I'm not going to explain every bit of it. Basically what he is doing is typical flamebaiting for this sort of topic. Rile up the "darwinists" in an attempt to have a little fun. My "back at you" was directed at him, hence, "right back at you, Jazzy".

With that said my "you're an idiot" comment was out of line. But I'm not sorry for it. Anyway it's moot as he is on my ignore list. End of story.
No problem bro. I shouldn't have said anything anyway. I guess I stuck my nose where it should have been. Sorry. :)