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AthlonXP1800
10-12-05, 02:49 PM
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9487/ATI-Releases-Xbox-360-GPU-Technology-Papers/

It seem to me that Xenos is not great chip, it wont run 16bit HDR with blending at full speed, it only run at half speed, Nvidia RSX chip ran HDR at full speed in all games trailers like MGS4.

Subtestube
10-12-05, 03:09 PM
Yes, it does have that one downside - however I'd anticipate a significant performance hit for 16bit HDR on the RSX as well - all they're saying is that it can run a specific kind of HDR at the same speed as it does normal rendering ops.

Moreover, it has 2 very very cool features; Memexport and a Tesselation unit. Personally, I'd love to have a Xenos to play around with. It certainly sounds like the most interesting Graphics processor currently in existence - it's a shame that we won't have anything with its kind of capabilities until the Vista time-frame cards come out.

As for comparing it to the RSX: We don't know thaaaat much about the RSX, and we certainly don't know how the two compare in terms of performance. At this stage it's not only speculation, it's poorly informed speculation at best as to which is a better solution [although I'm inclined to side with the neat-o tech in the Xenos, unless the perf hit to use it is very bad].

SH64
10-12-05, 03:34 PM
Maybe HDR 16-bit is running at half speed due to its MSAA compatability ?

Edge
10-12-05, 04:18 PM
Err, aren't the two sections under the High Dynamic Range Rendering section two different types of HDR? The first one being the main one that would be used for the console, while the 16-bit floating point being another option "but at half speed"? Admittedly I don't know much about HDR so I could be wrong, but that's the impression I was getting. At least it works with AA though, that's a nice advantage over most current HDR methods in games. Wonder how many Xbox 360 games will use HDR, though...

slick
10-12-05, 04:53 PM
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9487/ATI-Releases-Xbox-360-GPU-Technology-Papers/

It seem to me that Xenos is not great chip, it wont run 16bit HDR with blending at full speed, it only run at half speed, Nvidia RSX chip ran HDR at full speed in all games trailers like MGS4.

God you are such a fanboy. Seriously. Go take your overly biased opinions elsewhere.

As much as I love nVidia, the Xenos is a MUCH more powerful tool, both hardware and feature wise than the RSX for a few reasons. Free FSAA, Procedural Synthesis, MEMEXPORT, WGF2.2+, Unifed shaders (yes yes, in a straight 24/24 setup they're less efficient than a card with dedicated pipes, but when used properly depending on situation, they would be much more efficient), Natively supported displacement/parallax mapping, and countless other things that I have argued to no end on this forum.

Intel17
10-12-05, 05:17 PM
Natively supported displacement/parallax mapping, and countless other things that I have argued to no end on this forum.

Eh? Native parallax mapping? Considering that it's done in shader programs, all Pixel Shader 2.0(+) cards natively support it :)

Nutty
10-12-05, 05:22 PM
Natively supported displacement/parallax mapping, and countless other things that I have argued to no end on this forum.

Prolly because no-one listens to you as you spout rubbish most of the time. Native parallax mapping indeed.. :rolleyes:

slick
10-12-05, 05:25 PM
Prolly because no-one listens to you as you spout rubbish most of the time. Native parallax mapping indeed.. :rolleyes:

Did you even bother looking at the slides? I should have said it natively can CREATE displacement mapping on the fly. Sorry for the mix-up.

And you have yet to show me anything refuting or arguing a point. You just roll your eyes and say I'm wrong. The input is much appreciated. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm okay with that, but if you wanna talk down to me at least give some point to back up your argument. Don't just say I'm wrong for the hell of it.

Subtestube
10-12-05, 05:46 PM
Err, aren't the two sections under the High Dynamic Range Rendering section two different types of HDR? The first one being the main one that would be used for the console, while the 16-bit floating point being another option "but at half speed"? Admittedly I don't know much about HDR so I could be wrong, but that's the impression I was getting. At least it works with AA though, that's a nice advantage over most current HDR methods in games. Wonder how many Xbox 360 games will use HDR, though...

Correct - I tried to say that in my post, but was perhaps unclear.

Ruined
10-15-05, 05:46 PM
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9487/ATI-Releases-Xbox-360-GPU-Technology-Papers/

It seem to me that Xenos is not great chip, it wont run 16bit HDR with blending at full speed, it only run at half speed, Nvidia RSX chip ran HDR at full speed in all games trailers like MGS4.

If you think the G70-derived RSX chip can run FP16 HDR at full speed, I suggest you look at some benchmarks, as the G70 takes as much if not more of a hit when FP16 HDR is enabled. X360 has a less resource-gobbling HDR that games can use without much problem (and the launch title Kameo uses right off the bat)

I'm not sure which is funnier. This post, the one where you claimed the Thermal Compound of the X360's graphic chip would leak out when placed on its side due to the edram, or the one where you claimed the "OrigenX360" site with the bunnies was the "XBOX 360 Official Site." LOL.

Really, give the nonsense a rest.

kev13dd
10-15-05, 06:14 PM
I'm not sure which is funnier. This post, the one where you claimed the Thermal Compound of the X360's graphic chip would leak out when placed on its side due to the edram, or the one where you claimed the "OrigenX360" site with the bunnies was the "XBOX 360 Official Site." LOL.

Really, give the nonsense a rest.

I liked the thermal compound one most. It made me instantly decide against buying a X360 :D

K

AthlonXP1800
10-16-05, 01:20 AM
If you think the G70-derived RSX chip can run FP16 HDR at full speed, I suggest you look at some benchmarks, as the G70 takes as much if not more of a hit when FP16 HDR is enabled.

I ran Far Cry 64 bit on XP x64, it did not caused performance hit more than without HDR, actually it ran very smooth as without HDR. Far Cry on the PC can run more than 60fps but on PS3, it run maximum of 60fps, it wont have trouble running HDR at 60fps full speed since RSX is higher clocked at 550MHz.

Ninja Prime
10-16-05, 01:42 AM
I ran Far Cry 64 bit on XP x64, it did not caused performance hit more than without HDR, actually it ran very smooth as without HDR. Far Cry on the PC can run more than 60fps but on PS3, it run maximum of 60fps, it wont have trouble running HDR at 60fps full speed since RSX is higher clocked at 550MHz.

That's Far Cry. A game from early 2004. Games on X-box 360 and PS3 are using at least 3-4 times that many polys and more textures and lighting effects. I personally doubt they will use much 16bit HDR on either of the next gen console, probably will use 12 bit in-between format, can't remember what its called.

Or is that only on X-box 360? I'll have to look it up.

|MaguS|
10-16-05, 06:36 AM
I love these threads... Xenos vs RSX when one is a completly unknown factor to just about EVERYONE in this thread. I mean you have Slick here claiming that the Xenos is lightyears ahead of the RSX with features and power yet the only information given to the public was its clock speed. Yes, the chip is derived from the G70 but its not the same chip with just a clock boost.

Oh well... go back to your comparison...

pakotlar
10-16-05, 06:41 AM
I ran Far Cry 64 bit on XP x64, it did not caused performance hit more than without HDR, actually it ran very smooth as without HDR. Far Cry on the PC can run more than 60fps but on PS3, it run maximum of 60fps, it wont have trouble running HDR at 60fps full speed since RSX is higher clocked at 550MHz.


Ignorance is an awful thing.

lIqUID
10-16-05, 09:25 PM
God you are such a fanboy.

this is hilarious coming from you.

Ruined
10-17-05, 12:39 AM
I ran Far Cry 64 bit on XP x64, it did not caused performance hit more than without HDR

You must have a magical computer then:
http://www.nvnews.net/reviews/msi_geforce_nx7800gtx_sli/page_8.shtml

According to NVNEWS' own benchmarks, using the G70-based 7800GTX, enabling HDR in FarCry resulted in ~50% performance hit - the same amount quoted in your first post.

Firing Squad shows similar drops with the G70 - with HDR enabled you need to drop down to 1024x768/noAA to get similar performance to 1600x1200/4xAA without HDR:
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_7800_gtx/page13.asp
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_7800_gtx/page14.asp

Over 50% drop using FP16 HDR with G70-based 7800GTX. The PS3's RSX is an extension of the G70 architecture. Again, take your nonsense elsewhere, because the G70/PS3 RSX fare no better than X360's GPU with FP16 HDR.

AthlonXP1800
10-17-05, 03:38 AM
You must have a magical computer then:
http://www.nvnews.net/reviews/msi_geforce_nx7800gtx_sli/page_8.shtml

According to NVNEWS' own benchmarks, using the G70-based 7800GTX, enabling HDR in FarCry resulted in ~50% performance hit - the same amount quoted in your first post.

Firing Squad shows similar drops with the G70 - with HDR enabled you need to drop down to 1024x768/noAA to get similar performance to 1600x1200/4xAA without HDR:
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_7800_gtx/page13.asp
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_7800_gtx/page14.asp

Over 50% drop using FP16 HDR with G70-based 7800GTX. The PS3's RSX is an extension of the G70 architecture. Again, take your nonsense elsewhere, because the G70/PS3 RSX fare no better than X360's GPU with FP16 HDR.

I looked into these benchmarks and gave it a try but it didnt run, it stayed at the Far Cry menu, maybe it wont worked with 64 bit Far Cry. I downloaded Fraps and gave it a try:

2005-10-17 08:13:10 - FarCry
Frames: 13950 - Time: 143696ms - Avg: 103.118 - Min: 103 - Max: 105

7800 GTX clocked 500/1300 ran at 1024x768x32 16xAF, all options maxed and HDR on.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/5714/farcry20051017083250572fr.jpg[/URL]

During played Training level on XP x64, I was quite shocked and stunned at the performance, it was much higher than I thought, well lots higher than NvNews and Firingsquad benchmarks, the only difference I noticed that both sites ran 32 bit version but never ran 64 bit version. So well I guess you can take your nonsense back with you. ;)

|MaguS|
10-17-05, 03:51 AM
There is a noticable performance hit when enabling 16bit HDR on the RSX, but its not a horrible hit. All the Tests and Demos we tested were able to keep a rock steady FPS of 60 during the tests but were not able to increase above 60FPS, the frame rate was locked (could be a DevKit issue, We have contacted Sony and are waitign response).

I don't know if this is considered full speed or not by all your standards but considering all console games usually aim for a steady 60fps, I think its working as intended.

AthlonXP1800
10-17-05, 04:00 AM
There is a noticable performance hit when enabling 16bit HDR on the RSX, but its not a horrible hit. All the Tests and Demos we tested were able to keep a rock steady FPS of 60 during the tests but were not able to increase above 60FPS, the frame rate was locked (could be a DevKit issue, We have contacted Sony and are waitign response).

I don't know if this is considered full speed or not by all your standards but considering all console games usually aim for a steady 60fps, I think its working as intended.

Yeah all PS3 games will run at full 60 fps locked because of HDTV standard.

H3avyM3tal
10-17-05, 06:52 AM
^Thats 60fps even in normal TVs. Thats just hao it is. In Europe, its 50fps.

AthlonXP1800
10-17-05, 07:17 AM
^Thats 60fps even in normal TVs. Thats just hao it is. In Europe, its 50fps.

Hmmm well for DVD movies, 25fps on NTSC in USA and 30fps on PAL in Europe, that strange!

|MaguS|
10-17-05, 07:38 AM
Hmmm well for DVD movies, 25fps on NTSC in USA and 30fps on PAL in Europe, that strange!

That's film, the 60FPS is the actual TV limitation. Our concern is using monitors though since they are capable of exceeding the 60FPS limitation of TVs.

Ninjaman09
10-17-05, 08:41 AM
I love these threads... Xenos vs RSX when one is a completly unknown factor to just about EVERYONE in this thread. I mean you have Slick here claiming that the Xenos is lightyears ahead of the RSX with features and power yet the only information given to the public was its clock speed. Yes, the chip is derived from the G70 but its not the same chip with just a clock boost.

Oh well... go back to your comparison...
QFT...and lollerskates!!
God you are such a fanboy.
:udawg:

Mr_LoL
10-17-05, 09:49 AM
I love these threads... Xenos vs RSX when one is a completly unknown factor to just about EVERYONE in this thread. I mean you have Slick here claiming that the Xenos is lightyears ahead of the RSX with features and power yet the only information given to the public was its clock speed. Yes, the chip is derived from the G70 but its not the same chip with just a clock boost.

Oh well... go back to your comparison...

What do you expect? He reckons its going to take PC games two years to look as good as Xbox 360 ones. Anyway keep em coming slick its amusing.