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Ruined
10-19-05, 09:46 AM
http://www.megagames.com/news/html/console/carmackverdictonx360ps3power.shtml

John Carmack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmack) of Doom/Quake fame, arguably one of the best programmers of all time, has cast his final verdict on the next-gen console battle - giving the nod to XBOX 360 as being the superior console.

Before any detractors go off trying to indicate Carmack is biased in some way, remember in the past Carmack has never consistently favored one "brand" over another.

Tygerwoody
10-19-05, 09:54 AM
Carmack is a retard... Have you heard the guy speak? Bah, I don't care for him anymore... Bandwagon hopper

JamesDax
10-19-05, 09:57 AM
Actually what he said was this:
“PS3 is probably marginally more powerful, in terms of raw flops and graphic operations, but that’s not really the best way to look at things. When you look at these development cycles that stretch over years and years, being 20% easier to develop on is much more important than being 20% more powerful.”

nVidi0t
10-19-05, 09:57 AM
A retard who wrote the bulk of code for some of the greatest games of all time who's team practically created the FPS genre.

No offense, but I'd like to see you sit down with Carmack and argue the reasons as to which is the better console, and then judge who is the retard.

Mr_LoL
10-19-05, 10:04 AM
Ah the joys of Microsoft dollars. I am pretty sure the epic guys said the PS3 was east to develop for but they didny mention whether it was easier than the xbox360.

Ninjaman09
10-19-05, 10:21 AM
A retard who wrote the bulk of code for some of the greatest games of all time who's team practically created the FPS genre.

No offense, but I'd like to see you sit down with Carmack and argue the reasons as to which is the better console, and then judge who is the retard.
LOL no kidding. Not many people can actually say they are rocket scientists with a straight face, but he can. I'd listen up to what he has to say. ;)

Tygerwoody
10-19-05, 10:27 AM
yea, my eyes would just cross in a conversation with him. No doubt.... He's still an Xbox Fanboi:zombie3:

Ninjaman09
10-19-05, 10:33 AM
slick's gonna want to have his babies now.

|MaguS|
10-19-05, 10:36 AM
JamesDax pointed out how wrong Carmack is. He's claiming that the x360 is superior and (im guessing) better because of its easy to program for even though its weaker over all. Hmm wasn't the original xbox also easier to program for yet the ps2 still dominated in more original and unique titles released. Plus it had over 3 times the amount of units sold then the original xbox... his logic in the console wars is just poor.

oh and since when is he ever a specialist in the console industry? From my knowledge he has never programed a game for any console... all ID software brands were brought to consoles by other developers...

While I respect his opinion, it honestly means jack crap...

EDIT:
He also doesn't say anyting we already dont know. Everyone knows that MS has better tools and devkits currently then Sony. He's saying that its better just because of this and that the method of coding on the x360 is more to his liking. Basically he doesn't want learn anything new, he wants to stay with what he knows.

Mr_LoL
10-19-05, 10:42 AM
I am pretty sure i read somehwere that the ps3 is opengl based. Is that true Magus?

|MaguS|
10-19-05, 10:45 AM
Yup, OS is Linux based.

JamesDax
10-19-05, 11:38 AM
JamesDax pointed out how wrong Carmack is. He's claiming that the x360 is superior and (im guessing) better because of its easy to program for even though its weaker over all. Hmm wasn't the original xbox also easier to program for yet the ps2 still dominated in more original and unique titles released. Plus it had over 3 times the amount of units sold then the original xbox... his logic in the console wars is just poor.

oh and since when is he ever a specialist in the console industry? From my knowledge he has never programed a game for any console... all ID software brands were brought to consoles by other developers...

While I respect his opinion, it honestly means jack crap...

EDIT:
He also doesn't say anyting we already dont know. Everyone knows that MS has better tools and devkits currently then Sony. He's saying that its better just because of this and that the method of coding on the x360 is more to his liking. Basically he doesn't want learn anything new, he wants to stay with what he knows.

I don't think Carmack said that it was superior or better. Just that it was easier to develop for. I believe that that is the opinion of most developers including Epic. The problem some developers are having with the PS3 is that not only does it have a steep learning curve for development, but that a game develope for the PS3 will pretty much be exclusive to it. Meaning it would be hard to port to other platforms. So the question you have to ask yourself as a developer is do you want to spend millions of dollars to make a game for a platform that would pretty much make it exclusive or spend that same money on platform that will allow you to easily port to other platforms.

Oh and btw, saying that the PS2 had more titles and sold more units then the XBox when it had a 20 month head start makes no since at all. And the XBox had it's share of unique and original titles to. Of course the PS2 had more. But then it's been out what, 5 and half years while the XBox is only coming up on it's 4th anniversary.

Nutty
10-19-05, 11:38 AM
“PS3 is probably marginally more powerful, in terms of raw flops and graphic operations, but that’s not really the best way to look at things. When you look at these development cycles that stretch over years and years, being 20% easier to develop on is much more important than being 20% more powerful.”
QFT!

jolle
10-19-05, 11:55 AM
yea, my eyes would just cross in a conversation with him. No doubt.... He's still an Xbox Fanboi:zombie3:
wouldnt he then, as fanboys do, argue that the Xbox360 is superiour in every way, that it will make your life better, make you more attractive, get you rich quick etc etc..
Instead of saying its a bit weaker then PS3, but a bit easier to work with.. doesnt sound like the run of the mill fanboyism rants IMO..

Its more likely you are a hardcore PS3 fanboy, and gets all riled up if anyone sais anything remotely bad about the PS3, or slightly good about Xbox360..
ofcource Im only assuming you are a hardcore PS3 fanboybased on your comments in this thread, so I may be way off, but still, while we are mudslinging and such, why not..

Its also commonly known that Carmack is a NV fanboy (among ATi fanboys) since D3 ran a bit faster on NV hardware..
So the hardcore Xbox360 fanboys will prolly call him a PS3 fanboy, since it has NV GPU and Carmack said it was faster...
Either way he goes, some freaks will be all over him like a week of mondays.. comes with the job perhaps.. shame tho..

RAY16
10-19-05, 12:04 PM
I'm no programmer, but I'll have to agree with Mr. Carmack on the grounds of common sense. What good is assloads of power if you can't figure out how to utilize it?

Ninjaman09
10-19-05, 12:41 PM
Awesome thread.

evilchris
10-19-05, 12:51 PM
EDIT:
He also doesn't say anyting we already dont know. Everyone knows that MS has better tools and devkits currently then Sony. He's saying that its better just because of this and that the method of coding on the x360 is more to his liking. Basically he doesn't want learn anything new, he wants to stay with what he knows.

YOU PERSONALLY SAID that you work for EA and have "seen the dev kits" and PS3's had " a lot better documentation ". Carmack, a REAL PROGRAMMER who I believe actually HAS devkits, contradicts you.

I make fundamental decisions based on development tools and depth of documentation, which Microsoft has been superior on.

|MaguS|
10-19-05, 12:55 PM
Oh and btw, saying that the PS2 had more titles and sold more units then the XBox when it had a 20 month head start makes no since at all. And the XBox had it's share of unique and original titles to. Of course the PS2 had more. But then it's been out what, 5 and half years while the XBox is only coming up on it's 4th anniversary.

A year does not give a console over 60 million units lead... if it did, then thats even more to the PS2s superiority of quality games and sales... Heck, If releasing first means you have better sales, wouldn't both the Saturn and Dreamcast been great successes? Both launched before their compitition yet both failed to even get near the amount of sales that both Sony Platforms have reached (PSX has almost topped the NES as the best selling Console).

All of Sony's systems have been difficult to program for, yet they all have had great developer support and have shown to produce some amazing things even comparable to superior hardware (some titles on the PS3 can equal many of the Xbox titles).

And I will state again, Carmack doesn't mean anything in the console world. Untill ID developes a single title on the consoles, he has no ground to stand on. They have no experiance in the console world...

Again to clear up even more misconception. The PS3 is not more difficult then the PS2, its actually alot easier. Sony just lacks the final DevKits and Tools but we were told to expect them. They made many middleware and contract deals to aid developers, this was to make sure that it would make it as easy as possible. Remember, UE3 was ported over in 2 Months, MGS4 Demo was done in acouple months time aswell... To a PC Developer it might seem to be a huge challange since they NEVER worked with a console, but to a verteran console developer, its just another new console.

evilchris
10-19-05, 12:57 PM
"we" were told to expect them...



comedy gold.

lIqUID
10-19-05, 04:32 PM
hmmm if Carmack was paying for MY console I might actually care what he thinks. :rolleyes:

ajay()
10-19-05, 04:43 PM
And I will state again, Carmack doesn't mean anything in the console world

That may or may not be true, I don't know. Actually I do know it's bollocks, and for two reasons: Firstly, the high regard and respect that Carmack has a person and as coder, crosses platform boundaries. Secondly, the manufacturers of the gfx hardware within both a 360 and ps3 certainly do hold him in very high regard and both respect his views; hence the way that he is involved in the development of both hardware and drivers.

Toss3
10-19-05, 05:51 PM
A retard who wrote the bulk of code for some of the greatest games of all time who's team practically created the FPS genre.

No offense, but I'd like to see you sit down with Carmack and argue the reasons as to which is the better console, and then judge who is the retard.

Yeah, but it sounds like he would be lazy; I mean who wouldn't decide to develop a game for a more powerful console than for a weaker one? Don't forget that he's got years of experience in the business, so it wouldn't take that much longer for him to develop a game gor the ps3 than for the xbox360!

slick
10-19-05, 06:17 PM
Magus, you're right. Just because he has never 'seriously' programmed for a console before that means that it's impossible for him to have sat down and objectively tried to write and run code on both consoles and make an intelligent decision on which one is easier to program for :rolleyes: . He understands it every bit as well as you do, if not better. Do you think that spending time programming for last generation's consoles is somehow going to prepare you better for programming on this upcoming generations consoles, which have RADICALLY different hardware? Last generation's consoles were just dumbed down computers, which probably did not enthrall him as a system that he wants to develop for. He's jumping into this upcoming generations' consoles because they are finally decent machines, with good, new, innovative hardware that he wants to have fun with. It's "just another console" to you, and for him it's probably "just another computer" to tackle. Now who's word do I take... One of the more brilliant game developers of our time, or an EA employee....

And since when is coding for the 360 NOT anything new? What the hell kind of comment is that? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm fairly sure a tri-core PowerPC and a graphics card that has unified pipes and a sister processor has NEVER been seen before, but your right, coding for that is probably the same old, same old... :rolleyes:


And Toss, I think when he says "easy" that entails that he believes it's a nicer system to work with. Would you rather tutor a student that's willing to learn or one that could care less?

evilchris
10-19-05, 06:40 PM
Yeah, but it sounds like he would be lazy; I mean who wouldn't decide to develop a game for a more powerful console than for a weaker one? Don't forget that he's got years of experience in the business, so it wouldn't take that much longer for him to develop a game gor the ps3 than for the xbox360!

It's economics. If PS3 costs more to develop for due to Sony's complete inferiority in the developor support department, and that extra cost doesn't justify any "improvement" teH cELL may give to a game, then it isn't worth it. Has nothing to do with being lazy.

H3avyM3tal
10-19-05, 07:39 PM
Oh for the love of god. He just said that its a bit easier to develope for the 360... Thats it. Why do people try to read between the lines things that are not there? It may take time to get to know the PS3, but hell, it's not like it's IMPOSSIBLE to develope for...