The King Is Dead.Long Live The King!

[retsam]

wow corporaldan over 260 post the baords jsut got back up last week holly cow what do you live on these boards!!!

[[Corporal Dan]]

Yes.

I spend a LOT of time here now.

Not much to do.

Kinda sad too.

Don't really wanna go out cuz of gurrrl troubles.

They've got me down.

My friends @ nv are all i've got:(

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by [Corporal Dan]


DON'T FEED THE TROLL!

trolls need to eat too :p

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Megatron


Well its the same with any new card coming out.

People have had no problems whatsoever comparing First the GF3 Ti series to an 8500, and then comparing a GF4 Ti series to an 8500...and obviously the 8500 wasnt created to tackle either of those lines/generations of cards.To some people that may have been the same feeling you get when seeing R300 compared to GF4s.

It will be natural for the GF4s to be compared to 9700, which in turn will be compared to Nv30, with each later released card outperforming the previous.

no, that's not the same. look what he wrote two different generations of cards[/b], so why beating the dead horse? Okay, yea...R300 beats GF4...wow

GF3/R8500/GF4 are all the same generation of card, DX8. R9700 is DX9. DX9 calls for immense changes in Vertex Shaders, mild improvements in Pixel Shaders, and fillrate to burn. you need bandwidth to make this stuff all work. therefore you automatically have massive increases in FSAA and AF performance.

[Megatron]

Ummm it is the same because no where is a cards generation defined or labeled as being dependant on Direct X cycles.
If thats what YOU define a Generation of cards..fine..but that doesnt make it so.

IMHO a generation could also mean "the next" family of cards. As GF3/GF4..to me those are 2 generations of product..regardless of what MS Direct X was at at the time.

I still say its totally natural and expected for the newest cards to be compared to the previous leader.Its the way it always has been done and will continue.Im sorry that the 9700 is going to lay waste to all the GF4 Tis..but the comparison is unavoidable.

On a side note...wouldnt the 8500 be considered a DX 8.1 card? By your criteria I guess there never should have been any comparisons between this and any of the mentioned Nvidia offerings as they werent DX8.1?

[StealthHawk]

any card that supports Pixel Shader 1.2, 1.3, or 1.4 is DX 8.1
that means the gf4 falls under this category.

if you really want to look back and compare architectures, each new architecture belongs to a new "generation" which also seems to coincide to a version of DX. let's take a look back.

DX5: Riva 128
DX6: Riva TNT/Riva TNT 2 ;here MS added support for multipass rendering, taking advantage of cards with more than 1 TMU
DX7: Geforce256/GeForce 2 ;hardware TnL support
DX8: Geforce 3/GeForce 4 ;Pixel Shaders and Vertex Shaders
DX9: NV30 ;further programmability

each of these new cards and their refreshes were designed for a particular generation of DX. why is this so? because the majority of games are programmed with one and only one API, DirectX. as such, those games will take advantage of only the features present in DX. supposedly compilers like cg will optimize on a per card basis, allowing programmers to easily create effects without worrying about DX.

you can call the gf3->gf4 a generational change if you want to. but in truth it is the same architecture, merely refreshed. whether you choose to do so is entirely up to you. however, the argument being used here(and before nvnews got wiped out) was that R9700 was a DX9 product, and as such should outperform DX8 products. so in that context, that is what "generation" is referring to, architectural changes in the video card.

edit: you can look at ATI cards if you want as well, but for the sake of time i just used nvidia. they release new generations yearly, also corresponding with DX, intentionally or coincidentally ;)

[Fotis]

Originally posted by [Corporal Dan]


Welcome back dude.

Guess where i'm posting from right now, hehehe

Just a wild guess!!Greece maybe?:D

[[Corporal Dan]]

yay, you got it.

You win 2000 bananas!

Ah man

what;s it with the rain these past few days?

kataklismos! gamise ta ola!

hehe

[Megatron]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
any card that supports Pixel Shader 1.2, 1.3, or 1.4 is DX 8.1
that means the gf4 falls under this category.

Then the 8500 comparisons with GF3s and Gf3 Tis were not fair? As GF3 wasnt in support of 8.1?;)

You make good points Stealth and I understand what you are saying about generations, and Direct X.
All Im saying is it is natural for the newest to be compared to the current champs when cards are released. Its all there is to show the performance of cards to the public who may be interested in buying them.
I do agree that a Dx9 vsDx9 card would be a better indicator of how the new cards stack up to each other...but surely the market cant stop releasing products and reviews just because Nvidia is late on their Dx9 part.The comparisons have to be made with whats available.
Im sure come Nvember/December when Nv30 comes out well see plenty of R300/Nv30 showdowns.:)

[SnakeEyes]

Regardless of what you might consider a generation, it's only natural to compare the latest card to the other cards currently on the market (which is what I use to define a generation, btw- as in 'current generation'). It's also natural to compare the latest card with the previous performance / features leader, to determine what, if any, improvements and changes were made for this latest model.

IMO, there's not really any comparison between currently shipping products that can be considered wrong. It serves to provide better feedback on strengths and weaknesses of each, so that we can each make our own best purchasing decisions based on what requirements we have. :)

[Fotis]

Originally posted by [Corporal Dan]
yay, you got it.

You win 2000 bananas!

Ah man

what;s it with the rain these past few days?

kataklismos! gamise ta ola!

hehe
The rain was a nice refresh after a week of 40 degrees celcious but don't worry the sun is up again!!!

[ATI LoVeR 9700]

Originally posted by [Corporal Dan]
yay, you got it.

You win 2000 bananas!

Ah man

what;s it with the rain these past few days?

kataklismos! gamise ta ola!

hehe

Pou naksera oti aftos o malakas ine elinas! ;)

Kataklismos eh? Pou ise stin voria elada? Ego poa stiv elada se tris meres.

How do you access the net there? Oh , BTW Fotis, ego imo, oh Thanasis(G).

[[Corporal Dan]]

Well spank my ass and call me a b1tch!

I can't believe this.

LOL, re file

all your transgressions have ben forgotten.

Right now, i'm in peloponissos. More specifically, a little town close to Pyrgos. (you hafta know where that is!)


OMG how strange LOL

[[Corporal Dan]]

As for the net, i pulled some strings, got me a box and cheapass net access. It's dialup but better than nothin'

123 draxmes ana lepto... I can spend all the time in the world.

[ATI LoVeR 9700]

Ksero pou ise. Ego tha emi se ene xorgio koda tous Molaous(Molai). Apidia legete.

This is the strangest thing. I wouldn't expect you to be greek! Lol!

If I'm there long enough we should meet up and go cruisin the nightclubs in my BMW. :D

How strange! :p

[saturnotaku]

Originally posted by ATI LoVeR 9700
If I'm there long enough we should meet up and go cruisin the nightclubs in my BMW. :D


I think if this happens it will be the end of the civilized world as we know it. :D

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Megatron


Then the 8500 comparisons with GF3s and Gf3 Tis were not fair? As GF3 wasnt in support of 8.1?;)

You make good points Stealth and I understand what you are saying about generations, and Direct X.
All Im saying is it is natural for the newest to be compared to the current champs when cards are released. Its all there is to show the performance of cards to the public who may be interested in buying them.
I do agree that a Dx9 vsDx9 card would be a better indicator of how the new cards stack up to each other...but surely the market cant stop releasing products and reviews just because Nvidia is late on their Dx9 part.The comparisons have to be made with whats available.
Im sure come Nvember/December when Nv30 comes out well see plenty of R300/Nv30 showdowns.:)

no, not at all. they should be compared, because as i tried to show, i consider DX8 and 8.1 to be of the same generation. therefore the performance delta of gf/r8500/gf4 should not be exceedingly overwhelming. however, comparing a DX9 product to a DX8.x product should be a no brainer. it should win. period.

i agree, comparisons will be made, and they should. i mean, there is the question of stability, quality, as well as speed. however, i don't think people should be in hysteria due to the fact that the R9700 is destroying the GF4. i mean, if you just look at the specs alone, and no that the card has bandwidth savings techniques, it should be performing 2x as fast as GF4. and everyone knew R9700 would use MSAA instead of SSAA as its primary form of FSAA. in conjunction with it's awesome bandwidth its FSAA performance is guaranteed to rock.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
. however, i don't think people should be in hysteria due to the fact that the R9700 is destroying the GF4. i mean, if you just look at the specs alone, and no that the card has bandwidth savings techniques, it should be performing 2x as fast as GF4.

I can agree to that.
I think maybe the reason there is some hysteria may be due to the fact that alot of times, things that should happen on paper dont, so a lot of people are probably just really really excited that this one seems to be doing what it looked like it should on paper hehe.:)