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Infinity666
11-05-05, 12:00 AM
I have been reading about the coming of dx10 for a while and i was not impressed at first but it has undergone some development it seems.

DirectX 10:
*Geometry Shader- increase the performance of many 3D functions such as cube-mapping.
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/article.asp?CIID=24636

*The new graphics API will have much more stringent requirements for graphics cards, with a very particular guaranteed feature set. There should be no more "cap bits" needed to determine if your graphics cards can perform certain functions. The behavior of DX10 cards will be strictly defined, so developers can get the expected output from their code with no tweaking necessary for the eccentricities of different graphics cards from different vendors. (like a console)

*Suffice it to say: When DirectX 10 games hit us, they're going to be of a quality that next-gen consoles can't touch
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1841223,00.asp

*Crytech techdemo using DX10 simply amazing
http://www.gamershell.com/news/24901.html

I am really interested to see what everyone knows or has heard

Greg
11-05-05, 05:06 AM
I believe Windows Vista beta 2 SDK will contain a early DX10. Don't get too excited though, it is most likely an extension of the present. That is, more flexibility, less restrictions etc. along the lines of Shader Model 4 with some redesigned interfaces for the current 'right way'. DirectX is an evolution, hopefully maturing and stabilizing with age.

Omega53
11-05-05, 06:08 AM
I believe Windows Vista beta 2 SDK will contain a early DX10. Don't get too excited though, it is most likely an extension of the present. That is, more flexibility, less restrictions etc. along the lines of Shader Model 4 with some redesigned interfaces for the current 'right way'. DirectX is an evolution, hopefully maturing and stabilizing with age.

Umm have you even read anything about DX10. Its new from the ground up and not backwards compatible with older cards. dx10 games will require new cards to run the games.

|MaguS|
11-05-05, 08:34 AM
Dx10 games will release in 3 more years...

Greg
11-05-05, 09:08 AM
Umm have you even read anything about DX10. Its new from the ground up and not backwards compatible with older cards. dx10 games will require new cards to run the games.
Yes, I've read the line about fixed minimum feature set etc. By the way, I've been programming with DirectX since version 2. It's all good, I'm just saying, don't expect a revolution.

TheTaz
11-05-05, 09:13 AM
Every bloody time they say "This version of DX is Amazing".

DX7 - DX8 was amazing. (Shaders were used within a very short time of DX8 launch)

DX8 - DX9 meh. Ok there are a lot of features not really used yet... but some I could care less about... like HDR (Who likes going through levels that look 'over-exposed' or 'overly shiny'? Yuk... and you get a performance hit for that crap). Anyway... there isn't a huge visual difference between a DX8 version of a game vs. the DX9 path. Now, when engines like Unreal 3 get into heavy use of Normal mapping and Displacement mapping... I'd say that there's an amazing difference between DX8 amd DX9... but until then... thptptptptpt.

Anyway... my point is... even if games come out 2 years after DX10 launch... it'll be another 2 years before you see anything really "amazing"... and by then... some knob at MS will be realeasing DX 11.

-Taz

Infinity666
11-05-05, 02:44 PM
Every bloody time they say "This version of DX is Amazing".

DX7 - DX8 was amazing. (Shaders were used within a very short time of DX8 launch)

DX8 - DX9 meh. Ok there are a lot of features not really used yet... but some I could care less about... like HDR (Who likes going through levels that look 'over-exposed' or 'overly shiny'? Yuk... and you get a performance hit for that crap). Anyway... there isn't a huge visual difference between a DX8 version of a game vs. the DX9 path. Now, when engines like Unreal 3 get into heavy use of Normal mapping and Displacement mapping... I'd say that there's an amazing difference between DX8 amd DX9... but until then... thptptptptpt.

Anyway... my point is... even if games come out 2 years after DX10 launch... it'll be another 2 years before you see anything really "amazing"... and by then... some knob at MS will be realeasing DX 11.

-Taz


If you dont think theres a difference between dx8 and 9 hold your mouse oer the picture of the water at the bottom of the page in this article
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2281&p=2

Greg
11-05-05, 10:15 PM
If you dont think theres a difference between dx8 and 9 hold your mouse oer the picture of the water at the bottom of the page in this article
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2281&p=2
DirectX9a,b,c certainly exposed more shader features than DX8, but that linked article is a comparison of Half Life code paths, not direct DX8/9 features. For example, the bottom image shows reflections in water. Redrawing the scene an extra 1 or 2 times to make a water reflection has nothing to do with DX9. The water in FarCry uses DX8 or 9 standard shaders for almost identical effect. The new DirectX versions tend to 1) Deprecate obsolete features (eg. bye bye FF pipeline, AA lines) 2) Expose new features, typically increased limits (eg, shader 2 to 3, tesselator shader) 3) Modify interfaces (eg. help small batches, introduce instancing).

Infinity666
11-06-05, 03:14 AM
DirectX9a,b,c certainly exposed more shader features than DX8, but that linked article is a comparison of Half Life code paths, not direct DX8/9 features. For example, the bottom image shows reflections in water. Redrawing the scene an extra 1 or 2 times to make a water reflection has nothing to do with DX9. The water in FarCry uses DX8 or 9 standard shaders for almost identical effect. The new DirectX versions tend to 1) Deprecate obsolete features (eg. bye bye FF pipeline, AA lines) 2) Expose new features, typically increased limits (eg, shader 2 to 3, tesselator shader) 3) Modify interfaces (eg. help small batches, introduce instancing).

Thanks for setting me straight i knew that there wasnt that much different between dx8 and 9. but if the reflection in the water has nothing to do with dx9 why does it not show up under dx8 codepath? is the shader just better implemented under dx9?

|MaguS|
11-06-05, 05:33 AM
Reason why many games don't look extremly different between DX8 and DX9 is because many aren't coded to fully take advantage of DX9. DX9 has the capabilities to speed up alot of the rendering and add many more effects if programed specifically for it. I dout a game like FEAR would look and run the same if it was running on DX8, Same can go for Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

Greg
11-06-05, 05:42 AM
Thanks for setting me straight i knew that there wasnt that much different between dx8 and 9. but if the reflection in the water has nothing to do with dx9 why does it not show up under dx8 codepath? is the shader just better implemented under dx9?
There are actually some modded files you can drop into HL2 to get full reflections with dx8. There are visual improvements with the dx9 code path and shader set (back in original HL2, not mentioning the new HDR stuff), just not as dramatic as demonstrated. The truth behind why Valve didn't fully support dx8 as they could may never be known. There was a whole bunch of fuss over this issue relating to the Geforce5 series back in the day (please don't revive that discussion folks). It is quite likely there was simply an effort to exaggerate features of new hardware beyond their true worth, in order to move tech purchases along. You will see current examples of this, with '64bit enhanced' games, that contain improved textures or otherwise disabled visual features. I personally don't like the practice because it is deceptive, but I have actually been asked to do exactly that in projects I have worked on.

Rakeesh
11-06-05, 11:46 AM
Is there any word on when dx10 cards will surface?

agentkay
11-06-05, 05:20 PM
Is there any word on when dx10 cards will surface?

Q3-Q4 2006

xander_uk2
11-09-05, 09:52 AM
Every bloody time they say "This version of DX is Amazing".

DX7 - DX8 was amazing. (Shaders were used within a very short time of DX8 launch)

DX8 - DX9 meh. Ok there are a lot of features not really used yet... but some I could care less about... like HDR (Who likes going through levels that look 'over-exposed' or 'overly shiny'? Yuk... and you get a performance hit for that crap). Anyway... there isn't a huge visual difference between a DX8 version of a game vs. the DX9 path. Now, when engines like Unreal 3 get into heavy use of Normal mapping and Displacement mapping... I'd say that there's an amazing difference between DX8 amd DX9... but until then... thptptptptpt.

Anyway... my point is... even if games come out 2 years after DX10 launch... it'll be another 2 years before you see anything really "amazing"... and by then... some knob at MS will be realeasing DX 11.

-Taz

Yep. I'm 100% with you on this one.

brady
11-09-05, 05:11 PM
Reading all this stuff about DX10 (even though it may be overhyped) kinda makes me sad that I'm getting out of the PC gaming "scene." Perhaps when I'm done with graduate school I can hop back in. By then we should be up to DX12. :afro:

jolle
11-09-05, 06:34 PM
From a end user standpoint its prolly nothing "big", I mean the graphics wont magicly take a giant leap forward.. (like bumping up speed on SATA interface wont help much until we have faster HDs), but with combined with more powerful Hardware it will allow for better graphics ofcource, and easier to work with for developers.
I guess it will be more efficiant, and less CPU hungry (combined with the Vista driver model).
Seems like Vista and its APIs focus alot on virtual memory management.
For D3d programmers and driver developers it might be alot more of a big deal.

Its also pretty strict, you support the full Spec, and nothing else.
So no more 3dc, Ultrashadow etc

some good reading on WGF2.0/DX10
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/dx-next/index.html
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/video/longhorn.html

Greg
11-14-05, 07:37 AM
Some info here: http://www.gamedev.net/columns/events/agc2005/page2.asp

TheTaz
11-14-05, 05:52 PM
Reason why many games don't look extremly different between DX8 and DX9 is because many aren't coded to fully take advantage of DX9. DX9 has the capabilities to speed up alot of the rendering and add many more effects if programed specifically for it. I dout a game like FEAR would look and run the same if it was running on DX8, Same can go for Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

Well... that was sort of my point. Heh.

Most games (even to this day) don't look much different when running DX 8 path vs. DX 9 path. (With the exception of a *few* extra effects). As for the performace boost (DX 9 supposidly being more efficient)... most games still run faster on the DX 8 path, because they aren't displaying those *few* extra effects :screwy: .

So now, in the near (?) future... Unreal 3 (and a few other engines coming out) will REALLY take advantage of DX 9 (Normal Mapping, Dispalcement Mapping, Parralelelellex Mapping etc. (Ya, I know some engines do a little of that stuff already... but I'm talking full bore)) and show how truely amazing DX 9 can be.

DX 8 was out, what? 6 months and Aquanox came out being the first shader game? (Ok Aquanox didn't use the full potential of DX 8 either... but it was still a huge leap from DX 7, IMO)

DX 9 has been out for 2 years (?) and we still don't have a game engine that fully takes advantage of it. I'm still waiting for Unreal 3 engine level "amazement".

So, now DX 10 is supposed to be the next uber "amazement". Uhm... Ok.... how many years will it be before DX 10 game drops my jaw? Will DX 11 be out before that happens? LOL.

Don't get me wrong... some of those *few* extra effects that DX 9 displays in these more recent games are great... but they pale in comparison to DX 9's true potential (Judging by Unreal 3 engine tech and a few others).

I guess I just can't get hyped about a new DX release, anymore.

/shrug

-Taz

Greg
12-14-05, 07:16 AM
The latest DirectX SDK (Dec 05) contains a DirectX 10 technology preview including API documentation, code and app samples that will run under emultion in Windows Vista (as no DX10 hardware publicly exists).

a12ctic
12-14-05, 08:26 AM
Ill stick with opengl *smiles*

Superfly
12-14-05, 09:10 AM
f*king Linux users again!! - they bread like rabbits round here!! - last month we had one, now look at us.........

People with this disease should keep it to themselves. Its not big or clever - lol its not even interesting to read (xmasgrin)

jAkUp
12-14-05, 10:07 AM
OpenGL is on its deathbed :(

Superfly
12-14-05, 10:12 AM
I agree but not until Vista is very well established and ONLY on the Windows platform, OpenGL will always be Linux's friend.

nukem
12-14-05, 02:40 PM
Ive heard that it will suck just as always, only being able to run on Win/xbox and companies should stop drinking the MS coolaid and use OpenGL.

nukem
12-14-05, 02:44 PM
OpenGL is on its deathbed :(
I seriouly doubt that. Even though SGI is going bankrupt nvidia, ati, and intel(yes with their crappy graphics cards) all support OpenGL and they do help it grow. Most professional applications such as AutoCAD, Maya, and others use OpenGL to render. While its not being used as much in games it still is being used. I am a Linux user and have done OpenGL code but I have a friend that use DirectX code. After reading DirectX code I must say OpenGL is much easier to code.