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angshuman
11-09-05, 10:23 AM
This is it guys. First, the obnoxious BluRay copy protection junk. Next, the Spyware and Rootkits on their AudioCDs. And now, this. This is really, really stupid. What kind of a product hopes to sell by infuriating its *primary* customers?!?? Bye bye, Sony.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=27568

superklye
11-09-05, 10:37 AM
You know what? I'm actually going to believe this Inquirer article, just because I don't like Sony on general puprose. They're the Nike of the electronics world: they make pretty decent stuff, but charge WAY too much for it.

|MaguS|
11-09-05, 10:39 AM
Um first of all its from the inquirer... second I dout Sony would block preowned titles since well they are not hurt by them in anyway. We will have to wait and see, Gamespot will probably look into this and we will get an answer... Inquirer never likes to do nothing but throw **** around without backing.

Ninjaman09
11-09-05, 10:40 AM
You know what? I'm with you angshuman. **** you Sony. :mad:

LurkerLito
11-09-05, 10:53 AM
You know I do like the Playstation line, but if this is true that I can't sell my old games, buy used games, rent or borrow games from friends or stores then I have to say that I won't be getting a PS3. I will wait for some confirmation about this but there is no way in HELL that I will ever support that idea.

Cruel_Logic
11-09-05, 11:18 AM
I don't think sony is that stupid. How many people go and rent games from blockbuster to test them out? A lot in my experience. This move would probably sand half of sonys customers over to the dark side (microsoft), while discouraging those who actually own a ps3 to buy more games, since they can't test them out. I think this statement is just meant to get the community riled up. This would be a very stupid move on sonys part and they probably already know that.

Droid6
11-09-05, 11:22 AM
Microsoft is the darkside?

Edge
11-09-05, 11:51 AM
second I dout Sony would block preowned titles since well they are not hurt by them in anyway.
Umm, huh? Not hurt by them? It allows multiple people to play the game off of a single sale. As far as profit is concerned, it's no different from someone making copies of a game to give out to friends. Piracy and selling used games are not all that different looking at it from a publisher's viewpoint.

Still, I don't think even Sony would be dumb enough to try and impliment the system that's suggested in that article. There's just too many thing that could go wrong with it (can you imagine your PS3 breaking down and ALL your games becoming unusable?). Reminds me of the whole color wheel/limited installations crap that PC games from the early '90s had.

msxyz
11-09-05, 12:19 PM
Umm, huh? Not hurt by them? It allows multiple people to play the game off of a single sale. As far as profit is concerned, it's no different from someone making copies of a game to give out to friends. Piracy and selling used games are not all that different looking at it from a publisher's viewpoint

True, but it's not a crime to sell or trade in (legally obtained) goods, no matter what a bunch of retarded lobbists wish. Why a videogame should be treated differently from a book, a car or a house is beyond me.

Plus, the fact that Sony patented a technology does not mean it will be used. Now and in a console.

Steam does not allow games to be resold either. Is this the direction where the industry is headed? Maybe. Is Sony the corporation where MY money is headed ? Not likey. I still have a choice on the matter, hopefully.

jAkUp
11-09-05, 01:00 PM
You know what? I'm with you angshuman. **** you Sony. :mad:

I gotta add that one to the list!!! :D

Knot3D
11-09-05, 01:01 PM
Well, I'm still going for PS3, but this indeed sounds like an ff-ing stupid move on Sony's behalf. :thumbdwn:

angshuman
11-09-05, 01:45 PM
Still, I don't think even Sony would be dumb enough to try and impliment the system that's suggested in that article.
You see, I think the trouble is that Sony Music is having more and more of an influence on the way the rest of Sony operates (a wild guess, but it's probably because of its extremely high profits). Sony Music seems to be absolutely paranoid about piracy, and wouldn't let *any* kind of logic come in between them and their goal of maintaining complete control over how, when and where their customers use their content.

I'm sure most of you have read the recent Arstechnica article comparing the X360 and the PS3. The article highlighted how much Microsoft was pushing the "open" philosophy where your gaming devices, your music systems, your PC and your network interact and co-exist with each other and create an entire digital ecosystem. Sony on the other hand seem to have a completely different goal -- proprietary formats, proprietary protocols, proprietary networks, etc. They want to have a Sony ecosystem in your home, that is completely cut off from the other evil stuff -- PCs, the Internet, iPods, everything. It all stems in some way from the paranoid philosophy harbored by Sony Music.

Rakeesh
11-09-05, 02:54 PM
True, but it's not a crime to sell or trade in (legally obtained) goods, no matter what a bunch of retarded lobbists wish.

Well, it would be if the license agreement said that you weren't allowed to sell it. If you did, you would be in breach of contract, and sony could sue you.

Parts
11-09-05, 03:24 PM
They wouldn't do that.

Rakeesh
11-09-05, 03:28 PM
They wouldn't do that.

Why wouldn't they if they did impliment this form of protection?

Admittedly though, something seems wrong with this picture. Note the date when this patent was filed. And I don't see anything in the patent about data on the disc being erased after a first read. The only thing I see is protection against "used" discs. But they could be referring to "used" in some other context relating to piracy.

evilchris
11-09-05, 03:41 PM
lol. So if you buy 40 games and your PS3 dies, you have to buy them all again? Brilliant Sony!

Parts
11-09-05, 04:16 PM
Theres a lot of reasons why they wouldn't

One stated above, if your laser unit dies like certain PS2 lasers have needed replacing, you wont be able to play the games anymore.

Rentals: A lot of people buy games after renting them for a few days to try them out.

Word of mouth spreading of games: Cant even count the number of times I or my friend has had a game that we've just brought over to each others places to play, nobody wants to take an entire console around with them everywhere.

They cant look at this as anti piracy, I mean, even if a game WAS burned into one system, it would still be able to be copied, and burned onto a new disc, even with this "authentication code" thing, its not like it actually modifys the data ON the disc... then all you need is some kind of workaround which will eventually come out, and there you go.

I just dont think doing that for a huge console like the PS3 is realistic, and why I dont think they would even consider it.

Rakeesh
11-09-05, 04:28 PM
Theres a lot of reasons why they wouldn't

One stated above, if your laser unit dies like certain PS2 lasers have needed replacing, you wont be able to play the games anymore.

They could easily put some kind of OTPROM dongle inside of the PS3 that is difficult for the user to remove. You'd just have to have the PS3 fixed by somebody who is authorized by sony to do so.

They cant look at this as anti piracy, I mean, even if a game WAS burned into one system, it would still be able to be copied, and burned onto a new disc, even with this "authentication code" thing, its not like it actually modifys the data ON the disc... then all you need is some kind of workaround which will eventually come out, and there you go.

Well, it sounds like this is some kind of partial decrypt key that is stored on the disc. It reads the decrypt key and permanently stores it in the PS3. (an OTPROM with only 32MB would easily hold upwards of a million of these keys, depending on the size of the key) If the disc is ever reinserted, it reads the half key from the disc, and pulls out the matching key from the otprom, thus the disc can be decrypted. Otherwise the disc would be impossible to decrypt due to the other half of the key being erased, and thus it can never be copied.

I could think of many more ways than one that this could make piracy extremely difficult, even if the system was fully exploited via means of a modchip. Well, at least it would be impossible to rent games and copy, or borrow from a friend and copy. What would have to be done is a *new* copy of the disc would have to be inserted into a fully exploited PS3, and then from there the disc would have to be copied in pretty much the same manner that xbox discs are copied. You'd basically use the PS3 to read and decrypt on the fly the content of the brand new disc, which you'd export to a PC via ethernet, and then burn to a disc unencrypted. You'd then be able to play that disc on a specially modded PS3. This would effectively limit game copying to being mostly internet only, which I would guess would eliminate 2/3rds of the piracy they see.

I think that actually implimenting something like this is a question of how much it will cost for sony to press each disc. First of all, the data on each and every individual disc would have to be unique. Then, each disc would have to contain two separate chemical processes in it; one of them being the regular pressed foil, and the other being a substance that loses its reflectivity after being read once.

It probably wouldn't be cost prohibitive, but it would definitely cost more than pressing a regular disc.

Rentals: A lot of people buy games after renting them for a few days to try them out.

This can still be done. Namely, sony could have their own distribution system whereas they dish out those auto self-destruct discs to rental stores, or even retail stores as well.

msxyz
11-09-05, 04:30 PM
Some people noticed how this "new" patent is an update of an old 1999 patent which covered audio CDs only.

I don't know, though, if the update covers new or different forms of media. If not, this whole rumor is nothing more than the classic "storm in the cup" generated by internet careless talks.

angshuman
11-09-05, 04:41 PM
Some people noticed how this "new" patent is an update of an old 1999 patent which covered audio CDs only.

I don't know, though, if the update covers new or different forms of media. If not, this whole rumor is nothing more than the classic "storm in the cup" generated by internet careless talks.
Well, if people had generated this sort of a hype and hoopla about the 1999 patent in 1999, maybe we wouldn't have seen the spyware rootkits we see today on their audio CDs. Food for thought.

Mr. Hunt
11-09-05, 07:11 PM
I doubt Sony would do that... they are much smarter than that.

TierMann
11-09-05, 07:40 PM
I doubt Sony would do that... they are much smarter than that.

They were smart enough to override the copy protection of a lot of other companies with their rootkit ;).

I seriously think this is a load of made up bull though for all the same reasons allready stated.

Most of the times I bought PS2 games were pre-played. I hardly ever bought one new. The same with any other console I had because $50+ is way too much when 1) You've got no real hope of a patch coming out if it's bugged. 2) Developer and 3rd party mods aren't likely. So where does this magic price come from? That's what I expect the cash spent on PC games to go to, but if it's going nowhere else but their pocket it should cost $25.
Now ontop of that, let's say they do go through with this and everyone has to buy their own copy. Add all the people who buy the game who wouldn't if they had the opportunity to just rent it first. Then add all the people who buy it just to have a couple multi-player parties at their house (assuming everyone isn't going to bring their console to play each different game). They're making way more money than they would have so really to make the same profit the game should cost about $10-15. But hey, they can make more money so screw the consumer, right? Also it's a nice FU to places like blockbuster who make good money renting out games and consoles. Not that they're going to go broke or anything, but it's a chunk of their business.

(All above numbers were pulled out of my ear. It's just what it's worth to me, IMO.)
/Daily rant

jolle
11-09-05, 07:56 PM
hehe, if this were to be true, what if the memory holding all your keys for your own games were to be wiped for some reason?
you would be alot richer in fancy coasters all of a sudden..

Rakeesh
11-09-05, 07:58 PM
hehe, if this were to be true, what if the memory holding all your keys for your own games were to be wiped for some reason?

That is why they would use OTPROM. OTPROM works a bit like a CD-R. Any given part of it can only be written to one time.

OTPROM=One Time Programmable Read Only Memory.

jolle
11-11-05, 03:17 PM
well.. what about a huge EMP shock then? hehe.. nm..
anyhow, it sounds a bit suicidal with the Xbox360 showing up so much earlier, and trying harder to win over the asian market where PS has been strongest..
Unless ofcource it would come coupled with SEVERELY cut prices on the games.. I mean really cheap games.. to compensate that you cant sell them or trade them in..

given that they are even planning on using the patent on the PS3 to begin with..