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dante_uk
11-13-05, 10:59 AM
I was just playing with Beta 2 of Vista. Looks pretty.

Quake3 reports this:
seta r_lastValidRenderer "OpenGL-D3D Translator"

Guess what, a blank screen, nothing rendered. Not even the menus.

Quake4 - crashes, then crashes Vista.

I'm on a GF FX5900nu
The video driver supplied was Nvidia's 75.04 alpha driver.

Alpha driver on a Beta OS - obviously stablity is not something that's going to be missing but...

If M$ stick to their plan of killing OpenGL ( again ) then Vista may finally do it. So say goodbye to all Quake3 & Doom3 engine games.

holmes
11-13-05, 11:32 AM
I'm glad I made the final move to an all linux box... I see no need for me to ever go back.
:)

aAv7
11-13-05, 11:34 AM
You'll still be able to play opengl based games through an emulator.

Rakeesh
11-13-05, 01:09 PM
No, you'll still be able to play opengl games in vista without any kind of wrapper if you play it in a full screen.

Subtestube
11-13-05, 01:23 PM
Alphawolf is right - you'll still be able to use an nVIDIA ICD, so long as compositing is turned off - e.g., fullscreen. It's not ideal (some of us actually like to play windowed), but it's better than nothing.

dante_uk
11-13-05, 04:17 PM
So if I drop back to Win2K style instead of the new flash style and run in fullscreen it should work?

I was trying to full screen and Quake3 did go fullscreen, but it was gray, no menus.

I'll try turning off the new default style stuff and see what happens.

Rakeesh
11-13-05, 04:25 PM
Alphawolf is right - you'll still be able to use an nVIDIA ICD, so long as compositing is turned off - e.g., fullscreen. It's not ideal (some of us actually like to play windowed), but it's better than nothing.

And it is also very well possible that future GPU's, or maybe even future drivers, will support the nvidia ICD in a windowed mode.

dante_uk
11-13-05, 04:58 PM
I dropped back to 'Classic' style, ie win2k look.

Quake3 gives a gray screen. Ctrl-alt-del to task manger I'm able to see that it couldn't start the opengl subsystem. I deleted the config file so it could fall back to its default settings. No difference.

Quake4 crashes, no mouse after crash.

I also tried running Quake2, normally I run it at 1600x1200 OpenGL. I ran it and flashed the screen a few times then dropped to a window on the dekstop @320x200 software mode.

I also tried to run FarCry, missing dll MSVCP71.dll which is one of Microsofts standard C Runtime Libraries.

Are they aiming to release this in 2007 ?
I think the beta is being released too soon. It's no where near ready for any public(MSDN subscribers even) release.

It won't talk to normal windows networks. ( ie i couldn't find my WinXP laptop, let along the two machine I have running with Samba shares from Linux ).

I also tried installing Vista in VirtualPC 2004(an M$ product) first off it doesn't handle the virtual disks properly and you have for format NTFS first. Then the install runs fine, it looks fine too, then it finally boots into Vista problerly, with a desktop of 640x480 4bit colour!! The generic video driver doesn't handle a generic S3 type chipset, even though the install screens were higher res and higher colour depth. As a lot of software house use VirtualPC for testing products on it seems strange M$ haven't bothered doing the basics to get Vista to run.
I have virtualPC for testing, I have virtual machines running for Win98SE, Win2K, Win2003Server, Fedora Core4, Suse 9.3 & 10, Debian 3.1. All work fine, the native OS is WinXP on a laptop with 2gb memory.

So far Vista is not impressive at all, the desktop looks cool but they've changed so many little things that weren't broken, I think most people will just hit the buttons marked 'classic view' just so they can find the options they are there, hidden somewhere.

By the time Vista is released, the Linux desktop ( well KDE at least ) will be able to do all the same effects and looks just as good.

I properly try Vista again in about 6 months time, just to see if it's actually useable.
Ultimately, I'll have gone all Linux at Home long before Vista hits the streets.

My advice to anyone thinking of downloading the Vista Beta via one of the torrents available is don't bother. It's not worth the time or bandwidth. Maybe try when they reach Beta 6 or 7(I was running Beta 2).

Zelda_fan
11-13-05, 05:08 PM
OpenGL will be fully supported in Vista with no need of an emulator. You can't judge the final product by a beta 2 OS and a beta driver.

The only thing is that OpenGL will not work with the Direct3D compositor, so you won't be able to smoothly run OpenGL games in Windowed mode.

btw I think "classic view" is the most retarted thing MS ever put into XP and Vista. People are just lazy and don't want to learn how to use a new, more efficent, UI. They should force people to use the new UI and not provide the option to go back.

jAkUp
11-13-05, 05:13 PM
Thats what they do with Office 12. Office 12 has the biggest GUI change I have ever seen from one version to the next. There is NO classic view, and to be honost, thats they way it should have been done.

Its way more efficient, but some people will not like it because they are not used to it. They hold back the whole evolution into a better GUI.

Zelda_fan
11-13-05, 05:22 PM
Its way more efficient, but some people will not like it because they are not used to it. They hold back the whole evolution into a better GUI.

exactly, when I used to work in IT and we did the big upgrade to XP, people gave me so much hell becasue I outright refused to switch the theme back to classic view. A week later no complaining becasue people had gotten used to it and found it was actually more efficent. Who woulda thunk!

dante_uk
11-13-05, 05:48 PM
OpenGL will be fully supported in Vista with no need of an emulator. You can't judge the final product by a beta 2 OS and a beta driver.

Agreed, that's why I say they've release it too early. Just gives a bad impression.

The only thing is that OpenGL will not work with the Direct3D compositor, so you won't be able to smoothly run OpenGL games in Windowed mode.

Obviously at the moment even full screen is running through the "OpenGL-D3D Translator" - this has got to change.

btw I think "classic view" is the most retarted thing MS ever put into XP and Vista. People are just lazy and don't want to learn how to use a new, more efficent, UI. They should force people to use the new UI and not provide the option to go back.
I'd agree, if the new UI was actually better. I use a number of OS's and although it pains me to say it and is proberly only because it's the OS I've used the longest, Windows is generally easy to use, things can be set so it's simple to see a list of files and find what you want. Vista changes too many things and not for the better.
A Simple example: In XP - I want to run a program, I know the folder that contains the .exe so I click on the folder, there are lots more files than fit on the screen(detail view) so I click on the 'Type' heading, now 'Applications' are all at the top and I can see the .exe I want.
In Vista - the sort sequence changed, but it's not listing alphabetically anymore, I stared at it for awhile and clicked the heading a number of times but no, it's not sorting it to anything obvious, I had to scroll the file list down about halfway to find the .exe I wanted.(I'm back in XP at the mo' so I can't take another longer look at this, and why should I? this is suppose to be a step forward. Easier to use not more complicated).

This is a classic example of 'fixing' something that isn't broke!

A lot of people switch XP's startmenu back to classic, why? because the classic view is simple and does exactly what people need it to do. ( no I don't have a desktop full of icons, I have 3 icons, MyComp, MyNet, WasteBin, I use OdjectDock :) )

For me the XP-style startmenu isn't better, it gives me nothing I didn't already have.
All it seems to do is give me icons for programs I never use(Windows Tour!!!).
If it was better or had something useful on it I'd use it. As it is I'll stick to ObjectDock and shortcut-keys.

The change in Office is mainly cometic isn't it? I've only recently installed the latest version on my new laptop. Not actually used it much yet. I hope the main menus and toolbar items are still in same place!
(actually I've also installed OpenOffice2 so I might stick with that :P )

I work for a software house and I know hard sometimes when you come up with a great new feature and release it and no bastard uses it, or worse complains you've change too much. The new product my company is trying to push has a much better gui than the previous version, we're talking Win95 compared to WinXP, users saying it looks so much better but then fret about other little changes.

I agree we should be driving people forward to a better GUI, but if M$ f*@k this up, they're going to remove one reason NOT to move Linux - Learning curve of the GUI - because Vista will be so different it will feel like a completely new OS ( which it is of couse ), so if you're switching OS why not switch to Linux, the learning curve will be the same and Linux is Free!!!

Zelda_fan
11-13-05, 05:57 PM
A Simple example: In XP - I want to run a program, I know the folder that contains the .exe so I click on the folder, there are lots more files than fit on the screen(detail view) so I click on the 'Type' heading, now 'Applications' are all at the top and I can see the .exe I want.
In Vista - the sort sequence changed, but it's not listing alphabetically anymore, I stared at it for awhile and clicked the heading a number of times but no, it's not sorting it to anything obvious, I had to scroll the file list down about halfway to find the .exe I wanted.(I'm back in XP at the mo' so I can't take another longer look at this, and why should I? this is suppose to be a step forward. Easier to use not more complicated).

This is a classic example of 'fixing' something that isn't broke!


Well you have to give MS the benefit of the doubt that IT IS a beta OS. I would be shocked if you couldn't sort files by specific type in Vista at the click of a button. It might not be in beta 2, but I'm sure it is gonna be in the retail.

Nutty
11-13-05, 06:07 PM
<snip>
btw I think "classic view" is the most retarted thing MS ever put into XP and Vista. People are just lazy and don't want to learn how to use a new, more efficent, UI. They should force people to use the new UI and not provide the option to go back.

What?! XP default UI is the gayest crappest UI ever.. I dont know a single person at work who doesn't switch XP into classic mode. It looks friggen horrible.

If MS completely screw over OpenGL in future OS's, I'll switch to linux or Mac, and get a console for games.

Edge
11-13-05, 06:16 PM
exactly, when I used to work in IT and we did the big upgrade to XP, people gave me so much hell becasue I outright refused to switch the theme back to classic view. A week later no complaining becasue people had gotten used to it and found it was actually more efficent.
Or they just grudgingly accepted that you wouldn't change it and taught themselves to live with an unneccisary setup. I honestly never found any reason to use the XP UI, especially when it uses more system resources (which I never thought about much until I saw it running on a 600mhz PC I had to reformat at my workplace). Funny thing is, funtionality-wise it doesn't offer many improvements: almost all of the changes are purely cosmetic. And in some cases they reduce efficiency, such as the fading in of folders in the Start bar instead of appearing instantly.

I can't say much about Vista's interface since I haven't seen or tried it yet. But I honestly doubt it will allow for any functionality I don't already have on my Win2k setup.

Gabrobot
11-13-05, 06:31 PM
What?! XP default UI is the gayest crappest UI ever.. I dont know a single person at work who doesn't switch XP into classic mode. It looks friggen horrible.

Agreed.

And as for Vista and OpenGL, it's a big deal if OpenGL is crippled in windowed mode. Every 3d tool I use runs in a window and uses OpenGL. I'm thinking chances are I'm going to be giving a big "**** you" to Vista. If turning off the stupid pretty UI's fix the problem then that would be alright, but I'm not putting any money down that everything will be all fine and well. Not when we're talking about Microsoft and OpenGL.

Zelda_fan
11-13-05, 06:45 PM
Or they just grudgingly accepted that you wouldn't change it and taught themselves to live with an unneccisary setup. I honestly never found any reason to use the XP UI, especially when it uses more system resources (which I never thought about much until I saw it running on a 600mhz PC I had to reformat at my workplace). Funny thing is, funtionality-wise it doesn't offer many improvements: almost all of the changes are purely cosmetic. And in some cases they reduce efficiency, such as the fading in of folders in the Start bar instead of appearing instantly.

I can't say much about Vista's interface since I haven't seen or tried it yet. But I honestly doubt it will allow for any functionality I don't already have on my Win2k setup.

wrong. I'd specifically give the reason that the XP UI was more productive. Like a good employee, I'd follow up on how people were doing, and most people found XP to be more productive after useing it longer. You can do things faster and more efficently if you make an effort to learn the in's and out's of the interface.

but yeah you do make a valid point if you use 600mhz pc's at work. We use P4's so there isn't a slowdown.

NightFire
11-13-05, 06:48 PM
The thing is, you're using D3D to power the default Vista UI, and, according to my understanding, you can't run OpenGL natively in an D3D environment unless you want to use a wrapper, which usually results in a decrease in performance. When Vista Final comes out, windowed OpenGL apps will work fine in "classic mode", which doesn't depend on 3D acceleration to function. Or something like that. Let me see if I can scrounge up a link...

Try this (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/48409524/m/238008574731)

dante_uk
11-13-05, 06:49 PM
The bigger picture is worse:
M$ Vista cripples OpenGL.
No one writes OpenGL engines any more.
No games get ported to Linux(or Mac).
Linux's hope of being a Home OS for the family dies.

id are really the only game software house using OpenGL and supporting Linux & Mac.
Epic ( supports both APIs at the moment )

M$ failed in the past to kill OpenGL and force everyone to use DirectX because the Mac was so big on CAD and desktop publishing ( Sun X servers also use OpenGL for CAD packages ).
OpenGL was designed for this type of application. On PC when Windows took off M$ bought a company that had a grahpics API, then renamed it DirectX and aimed it at games developers.
Maybe this is why the system requirements for the new Aero style are so high and performance is so slow( hopefully it's just because the drivers are Alpha ) it because the api is designed for games not desktops. It will be interesting to see the results in the KDE, using OpenGL to archive the same effects.

dante_uk
11-13-05, 07:09 PM
The thing is, you're using D3D to power the default Vista UI, and, according to my understanding, you can't run OpenGL natively in an D3D environment unless you want to use a wrapper, which usually results in a decrease in performance. When Vista Final comes out, windowed OpenGL apps will work fine in "classic mode", which doesn't depend on 3D acceleration to function. Or something like that. Let me see if I can scrounge up a link...

Try this (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/48409524/m/238008574731)
All well and fine - but not actually witnessed. IE current beta(2) doesn't handle Quake2 let alone Quake3 or Quake4.

Current headline still on www.opengl.org:

Microsoft's first technical beta of Vista layers OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an an application runs using a high-performance OpenGL ICD - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience. Write to your preferred software developer, hardware developer and video card manufacturer and tell them to make sure Microsoft solves this problem before release and fully supports OpenGL ICDs within Aero. Hardware and software vendors listen to developers. Don't be passive - send those emails and keep the topic in the foreground

Zelda_fan
11-13-05, 07:16 PM
OpenGL will NEVER die becasue of the simple fact that CAD is almost exclusively OpenGL.

$n][pErMan
11-13-05, 11:16 PM
as with every windows release .. I wait a good 6 months after its out to actually think about getting it. I love XP... untill games stop coming out that work great on it then I dont plan on dumping it :p

evilchris
11-14-05, 02:49 AM
Linux a "home OS for the family" ? ROFL!

A *big* part of a "home OS for the family" would be the ability to go buy anything at a computer store such as a camera, scanner, printer, whatever; and have it just *work* when you get home after plopping the CD in and clicking next next next OK. I suppose it's Microsoft's fault this isn't the case with Linux? Does it have anything to do with OpenGL? No. Linux is a PC enthusiasts and server OS and nothing more. It will never be on a standard desktop operated by a novice who ebays and checks email.

dante_uk
11-14-05, 06:48 AM
Linux a "home OS for the family" ? ROFL!

A *big* part of a "home OS for the family" would be the ability to go buy anything at a computer store such as a camera, scanner, printer, whatever; and have it just *work* when you get home after plopping the CD in and clicking next next next OK. I suppose it's Microsoft's fault this isn't the case with Linux? Does it have anything to do with OpenGL? No. Linux is a PC enthusiasts and server OS and nothing more. It will never be on a standard desktop operated by a novice who ebays and checks email.

Have you tried Linux lately?
I'd recommend Xandros. It's designed for Windows users.
I plug in my usb camara and up pops an explorer style window with the folders from my camara, just like windows does.
I also configured my printer, using a standard add-printer wizard, it worked fine.
In both cases I didn't need to install any drivers.
In an idea world no hardware will need to ship CD's with drivers for current OS's because they will have used open standards. We are getting there, most camaras and mp3 players use a standard for usb filesystems so no driver is required on XP.

Linux is held back by the "98%(whatever) people use Windows so screw the rest" mentallity of a lot of companys have. Why are so many people using Windows? Because it comes pre-installed on 98% on new PC's

When Linux works it's because people want it to work, when it fails it's because you're either doing something no Linux developer as needed/wanted to work or because you trying to use a device that a hardware company doesn't want to work on Linux and therefore haven't bothered writing a Linux driver or even a good enough technical spec so someone else can write a Linux driver for them.
If hardware companies stick to open standard or produce good quality technically specs for their products then Linux drivers and Linux support will happen.

If it wasn't for about 2 or 3 games I have that use DirectX I'd have switched to Linux at home.
I already know my camara and my wife camara's are okay, my printers fine and our mp3 players are all okay. Even my TVTuner card is working fine.
I have Internet(firefox), email(thunerbird), messenger(kopete & skype), games(quake3,rtcw,doom3,quake4), office(OpenOffice2), image editing(gimp), mediaplayer( serveral ). Only thing I wish is it took less time to boot.

Subtestube
11-14-05, 01:34 PM
Dante: That's not quite true. I've installed a recent Distro of Linux on my desktop AND my notebook, and even though I've found it pretty good on both, I've still not managed to get ACPI working on my notebook, which incidentally allows both the fans and the soundcard to work at all, and getting dual monitors working on my desktop required hacking around in Xorg. I shouldn't need to 'fight' or ever enter text files to get these things to work, and under Windows, I wouldn't. I'm not saying Windows is better - far from it. Linux is MILES ahead of when I last gave it a real shot. Nevertheless, it still isn't as easy to set up as Windows. Still, I feel that it will eventually get there - appget under Ubuntu is just superb.

EDIT: Incidentally, I agree - it's hardware manufacturers that are the significan't problem for Linux progress at the moment, and if it weren't for games, I'd give Linux a shot as a full time OS.