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bugmage
11-18-05, 06:57 PM
dammet, i spent a good 600 on my new comp upgrade and im pissed that the xbox has suposidly all these kick ass commen sense advancements like the combined shading chip, idk if computer gaming work it anymore. I could spend $500 and get a 7800 or a xbox with more grafix power, 3 x that ati card, im at work right now so i cant check the artical to be more helpful but jeeeze

I have a amd x2 3800 2 gb of ram, 6600 gt wayyyyy overclocked,sweet mobo, so my bottlenech is the 6600gt


So a huge company like microsoft has the $$$ to make such a cheap and power chip, so whats the point, consoles are 2 cheep 2 make so its only a matter of time I think before pc is phased out of the gamming realm, which blows, what do you think? im sure sooner or later they will make swapable xbox gfx card upgrades and stuff like that, that will crash pc gammeing

subbo
11-18-05, 07:29 PM
Look EVERY time a new console generation has been launched some have said the PC will die. It HAS NOT.

Get both, thats what I've always done. I'll get the x360, the ps3 and still keep my comp up to date.

jAkUp
11-18-05, 07:29 PM
They will never make swapable xbox gfx cards. There is a reason Microsoft goes to great lengths to make the xbox not upgradable. There are a few things the console has going for it, first of all its cheap, and second of all, everyones system is the same, so it makes it easy to design games for it.

PC Gaming is not going anywhere, and at best these consoles match what is capable on about a 6800 Ultra or 7800GTX. We hear these stories everytime a console is launched. The GPU in the system seems slightly less powerfull than a 7800GTX (according to specs) But the CPU in the system has some huge bottlnecks. This could limit the XB360's ability to do advanced physics, and A.I., and things of that sort in the future.

Nvidia was fighting the unified shader approach for a very long time, I think recently they changed their minds, but obviously there is reasons against going to a unified shader system.

As always though, anything now is speculation, so we'll have to wait and see. PC Gaming is not going anywhere though. PC Gaming is the only thing the industry has left to get people to buy new PC's, PC Gaming drives the market.

evilchris
11-18-05, 07:46 PM
PC Gaming is the only thing the industry has left to get people to buy new PC's, PC Gaming drives the market.

jakup you're forgetting about the millions and millions of PC's sold to businesses who are on 3 year technology cycles. PC gaming is an insignificant part of why and how many PC's are sold per year.

Tom is dumb though:

It will come as a surprise to many that the Xbox 360 has already arrived in stores. Microsoft has wasted no time in bringing out the new Xbox, only three years after the original console

Xbox: November 2001.

2005-2001 = 4

jAkUp
11-18-05, 07:57 PM
jakup you're forgetting about the millions and millions of PC's sold to businesses who are on 3 year technology cycles. PC gaming is an insignificant part of why and how many PC's are sold per year.


Most businesses buy very low end machines. There is next to no margin in low end machines.

Notice that Dell has been advertising their gaming machines more? There is more money to be made there, they are hurting pretty badly because they are trying to attract "business" by competing on price. In computers, when you try to compete for the lowest price, you lose since there is next to 0 margin to be made on those systems.

Wonder why Microsoft is getting back in PC gaming with Vista? Because, alot of people buy new computers for gaming, and with a new PC comes a new version of Microsoft Vista Ultimate. Their highest margin part. And it goes all the way down the line, from motherboards, to CPU's, to graphics cards, powersupplies, etc. Obviously, pushing mid-high end equipment is very important. Gaming and video editing are just about the only time you need a high end machine anymore.

When you have a computer system that costs $280 to the seller, then sells it for $299 to compete on price, there is nothing to be made. You have to sell alot of systems to make up the price. Now a high end system costs you maybe $1,000 in parts, then you sell it for $1,399. $400 margin... vs. $20 margin... hmmm.. And that goes all the way down the line, Intel sold its higher margin CPU, Asus sold its higher margin motherboard, nVidia sold its higher margin Graphics card, etc. Now what would get people to buy these higher end systems? Gaming.

aAv7
11-18-05, 08:05 PM
The biggest set back of a console, regardless to how good it looks at launch is that it will sit on the same hardware for it's life cycle, while PC's continue to grow and upgrade.

2 years from now the guy who made this thread will make a new one saying " OH crap all this money wasted toward a xbox 360 and the G90 kills it! "

Thr original xbox killed what a G3 could do in it's time. Then G4 came out and we slowly saw games progress, then the 9800 pro/5900 series took over and boosted way above what any console at the time could do, the 6800/x800 series further impacted this.

I've said it a thousand times, the G70 is a refresh, wait till G80 hits, it will turn the tide, and these same " oh teh nooeeees pc gaming is dying" fools will be jumping back on the bandwagon.

Let's also not forget without an HDTV, the xbox 360's purty pictures are useless. A regular t.v isnt going to show you all the system is capable of. So you cant think of it as $400 for a better system, it's more like $400 for the system, at least $100 on games, and at least $800 on an hdtv.

Pc gaming aint dyin, and xbox 360 aint pwing for long.

Does xbox 360 currently blow a pc out of the water? Sure. But for one, I know it's only a matter of time before pc's take over again graphically, and two, fps's are my thing, and it would be a travesty to buy a console for fps's. Controllers suck. That's all I got to say.

superklye
11-18-05, 08:10 PM
These kind of threads piss me off almost as much as "what drivers are best for ______ card?" threads

evilchris
11-18-05, 08:14 PM
People buy HDTV's for another thing too, called "TV". I didn't buy mine for X360, I bought it so I could watch TV that is 6 times higher resolution than NTSC.

aAv7
11-18-05, 08:23 PM
............"t.v" ? ................

bugmage
11-18-05, 08:29 PM
I want pcs to get better, xboxes to stay a step below, because I dont want a xbox user to say wow what ****ty grafix your computer has, It upsetting to see how they can just jump so far ahead like nothing, while were stuck with nvia and ati schooling us with lesser hardware, its all to make money, but its just a pain in the ass. I want a grafix card with a socket 939 slot and ram slot so i can make my own baby :) I meen there little computers on your computer, ram cpu cooler and what not, and when are they going to make stackable cpus!, that would kick ass, 50 bucks for 1000 ghz addon :)

jAkUp
11-18-05, 08:46 PM
People buy HDTV's for another thing too, called "TV". I didn't buy mine for X360, I bought it so I could watch TV that is 6 times higher resolution than NTSC.

Hey man your sig is hilarious :D Theres fanboys... then theres SSXeon :D

evilchris
11-18-05, 08:48 PM
Hey man your sig is hilarious :D Theres fanboys... then theres SSXeon :D

lol, the funny thing is, he has a 9600XT. What an enthusiast =)

"ima get a XT as soon as they hit newegg"

time passes..., they hit newegg

"ima wait until they're 599"

they're now 599 and time passes

"ima get a XL and a HDTV"



blahahahahahahah

slick
11-18-05, 09:23 PM
At best the 360 performs like a 6800Ultra!?!?! :rofl :rofl :rofl

jAkUp
11-18-05, 09:31 PM
I really didn't want to turn this into a heated debate, but there is no doubt in my mind that a high end pc could run PGR3 at 1280x720 with no issues. I can run NFS MW at 4xAA/16xAF at 1600x1200 with everything maxed. Are you implying that my system won't be able to handle a few shader effects, and some higher poly cars? What exactly makes you so sure that it can't run that? When is the last time you saw a PC Racing Game PROPERLY take advantage of computer hardware?

The cars look good on that game but the rest of the environment is not as exciting. At least thats from what I saw in the ign review.

EDIT:
You edited your post!
Well, the only reason I said 6800 Ultra is because the direct port for King Kong from the XB360 requires a 6800... thats probably a little inaccurate because the game might run terrible on it though :D
SO I retract the 6800 Ultra statement, and I'm just gonna say its about equilavent to a 7800GTX :)

jAkUp
11-18-05, 09:40 PM
lol, the funny thing is, he has a 9600XT. What an enthusiast =)

"ima get a XT as soon as they hit newegg"

time passes..., they hit newegg

"ima wait until they're 599"

they're now 599 and time passes

"ima get a XL and a HDTV"



blahahahahahahah

A 9600XT? For a guy who praises the x1800XT you would think he would actually have one :D Maybe if he gets one he will realize he should of gotten a 7800GTX 512MB :D

bugmage
11-18-05, 10:05 PM
wouldent that be cool if you could pump cpu into onboard grafix :), like you sets a % of the cpu and that aids gpu

slick
11-18-05, 10:30 PM
I really didn't want to turn this into a heated debate, but there is no doubt in my mind that a high end pc could run PGR3 at 1280x720 with no issues. I can run NFS MW at 4xAA/16xAF at 1600x1200 with everything maxed. Are you implying that my system won't be able to handle a few shader effects, and some higher poly cars? What exactly makes you so sure that it can't run that? When is the last time you saw a PC Racing Game PROPERLY take advantage of computer hardware?

The cars look good on that game but the rest of the environment is not as exciting. At least thats from what I saw in the ign review.

EDIT:
You edited your post!
Well, the only reason I said 6800 Ultra is because the direct port for King Kong from the XB360 requires a 6800... thats probably a little inaccurate because the game might run terrible on it though :D
SO I retract the 6800 Ultra statement, and I'm just gonna say its about equilavent to a 7800GTX :)


Raw power, maybe, but the fact of the matter is that no game ever made for the PC will ever take complete advantage of a graphics cards raw power unless the developers are out to shun the other 99% of the market. Yes, the 7800GTX might look better on a spec sheet, yes it may have better artificial scores, but what does that matter if the games will never take advantage of that (Don't get me wrong, games do take advantage of hardware, but not the extent of consoles). I'm sure that PGR3 would run just peachy on a GTX should developers ever take 2 years to develop specifically for it, but that will never happen. All I'm saying is, if PGR3 were to come out for the PC, no modern PC could touch the quality that it has reached on the 360.

You're right, SLI'd GTX's probably kills Xenos is terms of raw performance, however in real performance, Xenos has it beat by a mile.

wheeljack12
11-18-05, 11:12 PM
jakup, your almost right. PC gaming Pioneers the industry. Without the PC games of yesteryear, you don't get the maddens for example. Also, Straight to the point. Development of the new consoles are based on PC technology, not vice versa. PC hardware manufacturers and PC OS makers are constucting if not selling the consoles. That means they know some of you aren't inclined or knowledgeable enough into getting a pc, so they got smart and cornered the market. Good for them, captialism at it's finest. It proves that PC technology does make good gaming, even for those who aren't going to get a pc for such a thing. So, straight to the point. Jakup said it best, you can't make your games look any better (AND YES, XBOX 360 graphics kick *ss) because you can't upgrade the look or sound. So sooner or later, you are stuck with what you got and can't make any better unless a whole new console is made. Yes, PC's have a expensive price tag. But if you make good purchases, the machine is geared for a longer future than a console. Meaning I would rather a pay a lot now for longer upgradability and better sound than be caught playing games that aren't stacking up someday for current tech. BTW, we pc guys already have dual core CPU available to us. And development of Quad Core CPUs are underway. Try to stay up with us.

Scunner
11-18-05, 11:33 PM
It's communities like nVnews and the ATi chaps that allow the console market to survive. As people have already stated, there's typically a three year cycle on new consoles hitting the marketplace. Imagine if there was no PC gaming, no early adopters of the latest hardware... companies like nVidia and ATi wouldn't have a market in which to test the fruits of their latest research, so there's a very good chance that the technology would advance slower than it has. Without a market, there would be fewer manufacturers, less competition, and less innovation.

We, as early adopters, have a significant impact on the industry as a whole. There's very little in the way of mainstream marketing for PC hardware. Thankfully, marketing campaigns aren't something that manufacturers have to worry about with the PC; word of mouth, enthusiast websites, and forums like this one do all the work for them.

Console manufacturers, in their three year cycles, monitor closely what happens in our "niche" market because it IS moving so fast. The advances in real-time 3D graphics over the past few years have been astounding. Not only that, but look at advances in mass storage, memory throughput, CPU processing power. Every time there's a generational leap in hardware, we lap it up, write/talk enthusiastically about it, drive more sales and revenue, which in turn assure research budgets for the next generation.

Console gamers three years from now will benefit from the money we spend today. We're the ones pushing the software developers and hardware manufacturers to give us more eye candy, better effects, and more realistic graphics six months, twelve months from now. Or are they pushing us into buying their products with promises of more eye candy, better effects, and more realistic graphics? Who's the chicken? Who's the egg?

I <3 my PC.

Scunner
11-18-05, 11:38 PM
Try to stay up with us.

Man, sometimes I take too long to write my posts. In my Interwebs Yearbook, I'm the guy who was "Most likely to be glossed over because his posts are too long!" :D

GamerGuyX
11-18-05, 11:56 PM
What in the jesus!? How in the hell did I miss this thread? :confused:

chowells
11-18-05, 11:59 PM
to make such a cheap and power chip, so whats the point, consoles are 2 cheep 2 make so its only a matter of time I think before pc is phased out of the gamming realm, which blows, what do you think? im sure sooner or later they will make swapable xbox gfx card upgrades and stuff like that, that will crash pc gammeing

Get real.

Buying games subsidises the cost of the hardware. MS are loosing money on the sale price of the Xbox hardware. Cost is only an illusion, you'll probably pay more in the long run due to more expensive games.

Replaceable graphics cards would be a ridiculous suggestion for a console when the main advantage of them is that everybody has the same hardware and that the game _will_ work!

msxyz
11-19-05, 07:01 AM
Any comparison between the Xenos GPU and a PC counterpart is quite pointless without acknowledging that they share little in common: the very architecture, the different design goals and different environments in which they will operate.

At a fixed resolution of 1280x720, with very long and complex shaders involved (and lot of branching), there's probably nothing on the PC scene that can touch it. But at higher resolutions, with higher AA-modes involved and with texture sizes impossible on the consoles (due to the limited amount of shared memory available) probably even today GPUs will have an edge.

Look at the Ati X1xxx series: the advanced memory controller takes a big part of the die and it's also the key element of the efficiency increase from R4xx to R5xx family. The Xenos, instead, goes away with a small 128 bit controller plus a dedicated path to eDRAM (the ROPs are actually embedded in the same eDRAM die). It's not an elegant solution but, within the limits and lacks of flexibility of this design, it's probably a more cost effective solution than the complex, crossbar designs on PC GPUs.

"Cost effective" is the key to understand the philosophy of design for consoles.

Now onto the CPU... Desktop CPUs have evolved into complex monsters with very deep and wide pipelined designs. Their goal is to allow a multitude of code, optimized for different family of processors to run in a chaotic multitasking environment with dozen of processes constantly active. The PPC cores used in the Xbox360, while sharing binary comaptibility with the rest of the PPC family, are derived from low cost embedded designs, not from desktop-like CPUs (like the PPC970) and they're much smaller, simpler even if their straightforward design allows them to run at much higher frequency without complications.

The lack of OoOE is not a big flaw with compilers specifically designed for them and stalls are easily avoided in most situations. And don't forget that the multithreading capabilities of the XCPU have also been misrepresented (purely for marketing purposes). Hyperthreaded designs fill the "bubbles" in the pipeline with instructions from another thread to increment the overall efficiency in multithreaded environments, but they don't allow any 2X "miracle increase" ! (Remember the "it's like having 6 processors at 3.2GHz" quote ? )

In the end, I still think that the XBox360 design and performance is superior to a today PCs, but only within its natural operating environment that is: playing games.

brady
11-19-05, 07:31 AM
I'm going to be getting a 360 because I can't afford a new computer (and had to get rid of my 6800gt rig :thumbdwn: ). However, I don't believe the 360 or the PS3 are going to be very threatening at all to the pc gaming scene.

I've been reading a lot about DX10, Vista, and some of the next-gen gfx and physics parts and I personally believe the PC gaming market is going to get very exciting this next go around. :cool: Unfortunately, because of my school plans I'm probably just going to have to play my 360 and come to the forums to see whats going on :(.

Knot3D
11-19-05, 07:40 AM
It's all about your gaming preferences.

The difference is the types of games. That is and should be the deciding factor to choose which you get.

I'm sure you won't see Nintendo Revolution specific games on a pc or Japanese oddball games like Katamari Damaci. 3rd person games are also a bit more common on consoles. So, you should choose based on what you have most fun at playing.