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mike686
11-18-05, 10:44 PM
Is there an LCD screen out there that will not experience tearing when playing fast-motion FPS games? I don't like turning on V-sync because that kills FPS.

AthlonXP1800
11-18-05, 11:44 PM
Tearing not only affecting the LCDs, it also affect all the CRTs too. I experienced tearing on my old CRT in every games while turned off V-Sync, I think it must be caused by 85Hz refresh rate. It not huge problem for LCDs since it use 60Hz refresh rates with 16ms response time like my LCDTV, didnt experienced tearing much so I noticed very very few tearing when turned off V-Sync in FPS when I turned around 360 degree but it stopped tearing when turned around 2nd time. I think the latest and new LCDs with 2ms and 4ms will help reduce tearing more further than 16ms did. Only LCDs with 16ms or less are best for gaming, anything above 16ms are bad, it can cause bad tearing as well as ghosting, I never had ghosting on my LCDTV. :)

Scunner
11-18-05, 11:48 PM
Dude, it's almost 5am back home... shouldn't you be in bed?!

Roadhog
11-18-05, 11:54 PM
my lcd doesnt tear.

mike686
11-19-05, 03:02 AM
Yeah I saw that new Viewsonic VX922 on Newegg, it's got a 2ms black-white-black response time. This wil probably eliminate tearing don't you think?





my lcd doesnt tear.


Which LCD? Is this with V-sync off?

Dazz
11-19-05, 03:04 AM
Dude, it's almost 5am back home... shouldn't you be in bed?!
Hey some people have to get up before 5am to get to work you know?

Elderblaze
11-19-05, 05:27 AM
my lcd doesnt tear.

Wishful thinking... all lcd's tear. Period. Run it past it's refresh rate without vsync and it will tear. This is fact. There's no debate.

Also.. the 2ms display will not eliminate tearing. Tearing has nothing to do with responce time. it could be an O1 ms display and if the refresh rate is 60 HZ and your Frame rate is 61 FPS your gonna tear. Anytime your Frame Rate Exceeds your Refresh Rate YOU WILL TEAR. Reason it's alot less apparant on a good CRT is because you can run your refresh rate often times well over 100 hz.. my old sony g520 could do 1600x1200 at 120hz, not many games consistantly go past 120 fps at 1600x1200.

Regards,
Mike

pakotlar
11-19-05, 06:09 AM
No LCD has been able to maintain a better than ~10ms average response rate. I'm sorry, but that 2ms B-B is complete horse****. Read a review before you purchase. 2ms rivals phosphor decay time, that should give you an idea of how unrealistic true 2ms LCD panels are. Maybe one day, but not anytime soon. If an LCD can support 4ms on average in the next 2 years, I will be pleasantly surprised. PS, the response rate of the liquid crystals is not the only thing that determines motion blurring. The constant "on" backlighting system introduces motion artifacting. Even a 1ms LCD with a contsant "on" baclight will have blurring artifact, because in between color changes (say an RGB 255 and an RGB 103) you will be able to see interpolated values, and your eye will interpret the averaged value as a blur. A strobing backlight effectively deals with this issue. I believe Phillips is making some strides in this area, and the first 8ms LCD/strobing backlight display is due Q2 2006. The backlight refreshes from on to off and back to on @ sync with the LCD panel's refresh rate. The effect could probably be likened to electron gun deflection , except the whole screen updates in a single frame.

Mathesar
11-19-05, 08:07 AM
I'm not sure what it is with LCD but from my experience of running LCD (Dell 2001FP) and CRT side by side (dual monitor) LCDs look much worse with Vsync disabled vs. CRT. the screen tearing effect was much more pronounced on the LCD side so if you're looking to run without Vsync you're going to be disappointed. Also with a CRT the higher the refresh rate you run the less screen tearing you'll see, LCDs in general are 60hz max refresh.

chowells
11-19-05, 08:53 AM
Haven't noticed any tearing on my 2405FPW with vsync enabled. Played HL2 and Call of duty 2 on it and am a very happy bunny :)

Who cares if vsync "Kills" FPS? Not like 100fps vs 60fps gives you the slightest bit of advantage anyway.

Riptide
11-19-05, 09:07 AM
Because you have vsynch enabled. Without it then you'll see tearing.

And I'm not sure how this has anything to do with refresh rate when we're talking an LCD. Refresh rate with a CRT are not the same thing as it is when you're talking about an LCD.

Dazz
11-19-05, 11:11 AM
Not like 100fps vs 60fps gives you the slightest bit of advantage
Again i quote

mike686
11-19-05, 02:35 PM
Who cares if vsync "Kills" FPS? Not like 100fps vs 60fps gives you the slightest bit of advantage anyway.

In Battlefield 2, I can definately notice the difference between 100 and 60fps. Not to mention V-sync in BF2 creates a laggy mouse effect.


I guess the only true solution is to wait for a 100-120Hz LCD?

jAkUp
11-19-05, 03:32 PM
Again i quote

With Vsync on, if your computer can only put out 59FPS, it will automatically drop down to 30FPS. (Unless the games supports triple buffering.)

This is exactly why I do not use Vysnc.

As for tearing, all LCD's and CRT's tear if you don't have vsync on. Its the fact that some LCD's blur because of high response times. The most recent LCD's have very little problem with blurring, as a matter of fact, on some of the high end Dell LCD's they don't have a single issue with blurring, and look very comparable to my NEC FE2111SB

NWCook
11-19-05, 04:13 PM
Is the only reason tearing occurs because your frame rate exceeds your monitor's refresh rate? Would it be possible to tell a game to automatically limit the frame rate so it would'nt exceed the refresh rate?

Q
11-19-05, 04:39 PM
Is the only reason tearing occurs because your frame rate exceeds your monitor's refresh rate? Would it be possible to tell a game to automatically limit the frame rate so it would'nt exceed the refresh rate?

That's what VSync does. However, whenever your system can't churn out whatever refresh its locked at, it cuts the FPS in half.

Example: You set your refresh rate to 100hz and you turn on VSYNC. The moment that you can't make 100FPS or more your FPS automatically drops to 50FPS. If it can't make 50FPS then it drops to 25FPS and so on.

I thought there was a time that this didn't happen, though? Can anyone verify this?

Ninjaman09
11-19-05, 04:51 PM
I thought there was a time that this didn't happen, though? Can anyone verify this?
Triple buffering prevents that from happening.

Mathesar
11-19-05, 05:44 PM
Triple buffering prevents this fps cut with vsync but not a whole lot of games support it and the triple buffering option in Nvidia's advanced settings only applies to OpenGL.

jAkUp
11-19-05, 06:16 PM
Yea its a shame more games don't support triple buffering.

Its strange because some of the only games that support triple buffering, are the ones you would never expect.

For instance, NBA Live 2006 for the PC supports Triple Buffering! Weird... heh

mike686
11-19-05, 09:02 PM
As for tearing, all LCD's and CRT's tear if you don't have vsync on. Its the fact that some LCD's blur because of high response times. The most recent LCD's have very little problem with blurring, as a matter of fact, on some of the high end Dell LCD's they don't have a single issue with blurring, and look very comparable to my NEC FE2111SB


When I had a 60Hz LCD, I would notice terrible tearing in games. With my CRT at 85Hz, the tearing is a lot less noticeable. Therefore, CRT's DO tear, but it's only really noticable at refresh rates below 85Hz.

Now I know 60Hz LCD's are a thing of the past and now they have 75-85Hz LCDs. Here's an 85Hz LCD.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116299

Since tearing seems to be least noticable at 85Hz and above, would this be a good LCD for gaming?

Greg
11-19-05, 09:49 PM
Is the only reason tearing occurs because your frame rate exceeds your monitor's refresh rate? Would it be possible to tell a game to automatically limit the frame rate so it would'nt exceed the refresh rate?
It's not the actual frame rate that counts, but the synchronization of frames. Tearing occurs because the image is changing while the display is in the middle of updating its state. So a 60hz game on a 60hz screen can still tear if not synced.

The simple example is the top half the screen showing the current game frame, while the bottom half still shows the last game frame. This is easily demonstrated by standing still in a FPS game anad turning your head left or right.

The only way to avoid this on CRT or LCD is to update the data during a short period of time set as a delay before the next display update occurs. In CRTs this was called a vertical blank period, when the raster stopped drawing and went from the bottom right to the top left of the screen (control wise, not mechanically) with LCDs, the effect is still simulated.

Syncing to the display limits the games visible frames to the limit of the monitor. Unless tripple buffering is used, the game may pause waiting for a chance to draw its next frame. Most gamers put up with the tearing unless it is annoying in a particular game. Also note that increasing a monitors refresh rate may not improve tearing as it may show more visible tears at a single time. Tripple buffering may sound like the ultimate solution, but it does slow performance slightly, still limits frame rates, with an associated 'feel' to visible and practical smoothness, and most importantly uses another frame worth of memory, which can be many megabytes of precious video ram, particularly at high resolutions and sample modes.

Note there are a whole bunch of separate and related issues with monitors, display adaptors and software relating to perception of motion (eg. is 25-60hz enough?), refresh rates and flicker (eg. ow my head hurts at < 85hz), game frame rates (eg. why do consoles aim for 30 or 60hz), advatages of higher display rates (eg. why have > 60hz on LCD if image does not decay like CRT phosphor?) The answer to all these and many more are available in truth and great detail with a google search, but would other wise take many pages to describe and are the source of regular confusion and argument on this and other forums.

Riptide
11-19-05, 10:23 PM
(eg. why have > 60hz on LCD if image does not decay like CRT phosphor?)This is what I was getting at earlier when I mentioned how refresh rates on an LCD vs. CRT is sort of an apples->oranges comparison. I'm not even sure if it has any discernable effect on LCDs, including w/regard to tearing.

Vagrant Zero
11-19-05, 11:34 PM
Only time I've seen tearing is when I've run a D3 based game without vsync. It was horrible then.

Riptide
11-20-05, 12:13 AM
I get tearing a lot. Sometimes worse than others depending on the game due to differences in frame rate. I'm more or less used to it honestly and it doesn't really bother me. I never run w/vsynch on because I've always been told it's a frame rate killer.

Elderblaze
11-21-05, 04:00 AM
I had a hard time learning to live with it, but i've learned to ignore it.. similiar to riptide. You'd really think in this timeframe (LCD Era) that Tripple buffering support would be a given.. damn shame. I hope MS makes it a requirement for DX10.