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Infinity666
12-16-05, 01:20 AM
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/15/ms_denies_xbox_360_hd_dvd/
only dvd9 are they smoking crack?

Bad_Boy
12-16-05, 01:42 AM
prepare to get flamed :x

kev13dd
12-16-05, 01:48 AM
Thing is, as much as it would make the console look better, its just not possible

Microsoft has launched with a DVD drive. If they release an HD drive into their consoles after a certain amount of time, and games started comming out in HD disks, what would happen to the other people? Would companies have to make DVD and HD versions of the game? Even if replacing the DVD was as easy as the press of a button it would cost Microsoft at least over a billion to give out HD drives to all the previous owners

There just isn't logisitical standpoint to put out an HD drive. There may be the cool factor and usefullness factor, but those can't help

K

|MaguS|
12-16-05, 02:19 AM
MS can't go to HD-DVD for games (or any other format) due to not launching with the it already in place. If they did, they would get hit with such a huge class action lawsuit.

I can see them upgrading for movie compatibility but never will games use it... ever.

The main thing this will hurt is PS3 ports over to other consoles (since it has been a regular for Sony systems to get certain games first), can you imagine the compression or stripping it would require to fit a game that just takes up half a Blu-Ray disk onto DVD9?

Infinity666
12-16-05, 02:22 AM
MS can't go to HD-DVD for games (or any other format) due to not launching with the it already in place. If they did, they would get hit with such a huge class action lawsuit.

I can see them upgrading for movie compatibility but never will games use it... ever.

The main thing this will hurt is PS3 ports over to other consoles (since it has been a regular for Sony systems to get certain games first), can you imagine the compression or stripping it would require to fit a game that just takes up half a Blu-Ray disk onto DVD9?

Thats my point exactly it seems if Ms doesnt eventualy use hddvd the will be screwed. dvd9 is almost outdated (for games & HD content anyway)

|MaguS|
12-16-05, 02:28 AM
But they CANT go... There is no ifs, ands or buts... They chose from the beginning to lower the cost of the system (which they already lose alot on) by not including nextgen media support.

DVD9 is outdated btw, 720p TVs are almost common and 1080p TVs are coming out constantly, DVD9 discs can't support movies at those resolutions (while keeping them single discs and adding extras)...

I still do not understand the reason behind this post, it was a well known fact before the console released that MS was not supporting nexgen media... were you just so clueless and out of the loop that you did not know this?

Infinity666
12-16-05, 02:34 AM
But they CANT go... There is no ifs, ands or buts... They chose from the beginning to lower the cost of the system (which they already lose alot on) by not including nextgen media support.

DVD9 is outdated btw, 720p TVs are almost common and 1080p TVs are coming out constantly, DVD9 discs can't support movies at those resolutions (while keeping them single discs and adding extras)...

I still do not understand the reason behind this post, it was a well known fact before the console released that MS was not supporting nexgen media... were you just so clueless and out of the loop that you did not know this?

No I was well aware that they were not going to launch with a hddvd drive since they well barely exist at the moment. But to say no future suppourt is stupid...why have they been fighting blu-ray if they had no plans of using the format. And dvd9 can hold HD in wmv9 format I have Fifth Element on a dvd5 right now so......but I get your point

msxyz
12-16-05, 03:20 AM
At this point, the only sensible move Microsoft could do on the drive front is to make it compatible, through a software upgrade, with the new 12 GB format that is to be adopted by Cina and other countries in the far-east

With MPEG-4 or similar codecs, storing a high definition movie on a standard disc is possible and it's much less troublesome option than adopting a new techology. There's really no need right now of another otpical disc format in the consumer market with the new multilayered technology (the so called "olographical") looming at the horizon and becoming mainstream by 2008-2010.

Edge
12-16-05, 03:25 AM
Thats my point exactly it seems if Ms doesnt eventualy use hddvd the will be screwed. dvd9 is almost outdated (for games & HD content anyway)
They'll just use multiple discs for games. Enchant Arm is already doing that. Gamecube games (and even a few PS2 games) did fine in the current generation with multi-disc games, I'm not sure why this is such a big deal for the Xbox 360.

RAY16
12-16-05, 05:13 AM
What about DVD-18? Is it too expensive to produce or something? I'm not really in-the-know when it comes to optical drives and storage...

|MaguS|
12-16-05, 05:34 AM
What about DVD-18? Is it too expensive to produce or something? I'm not really in-the-know when it comes to optical drives and storage...

There is no such thing.

Edge, The problem isn't with RPGs, in my opinion. It comes down to other genres that swapping discs becomes annoying, like FPS or Action Games.

RAY16
12-16-05, 05:45 AM
There is no such thing.

Edge, The problem isn't with RPGs, in my opinion. It comes down to other genres that swapping discs becomes annoying, like FPS or Action Games.

http://timefordvd.com/tutorial/DVDTutorial.shtml


Double-Sided, Dual-Layered. The DVD-18 construction can hold approximately 17 GBytes (almost 26 times the data capacity of a CD), or about 8 hours of video and audio as a DVD-Video. Think of DVD-18 as a double-sided DVD-9, where up to four hours of uninterrupted video and audio can be stored on one side. To access the content on the other side of a DVD-18, you have to manually flip the DVD. To date, few titles have been released using this construction. Content providers (e.g., movie studios) usually choose to go with two DVD-9s than a single DVD-18 because DVD-18s cost far more to produce.

[I guess I answered my own question with this quote...but still, games do cost $60 now]


http://sanyolaserproducts.com/dvd/authoring.htm


There are several DVD formats, involving different combinations of layers of data and sides of the disc. The most common formats are:
DVD-5, which has the data in one layer on one side of the disc
DVD-9, with data in two layers on one side
DVD-10, with data in one layer each on two sides
DVD-18, with data in two layers on two sides.

The different formats involve different capacities.
DVD-5 holds 4.7 Gigabytes of data
DVD-9 holds 8.5 GB
DVD-10 holds 9.4 GB
DVD-18 holds 17 GB


It's not the most "professional" looking thing since you can't have art on one side of the Disc, but it would be useful... I mean, games do cost $60 now, the least they could do is use DVD-18 for larger games.

|MaguS|
12-16-05, 06:06 AM
DVD18 is nothing more then a DVD9 with dual sides... it still the same as having two discs since you would have to remove the media and flip it (kind of like early dvds). Its not a new format or anything...

RAY16
12-16-05, 06:14 AM
DVD18 is nothing more then a DVD9 with dual sides... it still the same as having two discs since you would have to remove the media and flip it (kind of like early dvds). Its not a new format or anything...

I know it's not a new format and I know it's basically two DVD-9's back-to-back, but I'd prefer to just flip a single DVD over rather than have to eject the tray, open the case, take the disc out of the tray, put the disc back in the case, take the second disk out, close case, put disc in tray, and close the tray. It would also save case room, so for a four disc game you'd only need two actual disks and only two disc holders inside the DVD case, which would in also make it so you could fit 8 discs worth of content into a 4 Disc case). But I guess it doesn't matter since apparently it's hard and expensive to make in large numbers.

msxyz
12-16-05, 07:55 AM
The problem with DVDs 18 is that flipping the disk requires some manual action from the user, just like swapping discs. There's no advantage over using 2 discs.

Back in the Laserdisc era (LD originated in 1973 and had 2 sides, just like vinyl records) several drives had two pickups to read on both sides to overcome the need to manually flip the discs. This feature is not present on modern DVD drives

Salamandar
12-16-05, 10:35 AM
I think MS want to stay away from the Next Generation DVD war, more like the days of the Betamax VS VHS in the late 70's early 80's.

That's the Tax MS have to pay to release a next generation console earlier than the rest.
It's not a bad decision staying with DVD 9 media and drive, after all MS is after money here, so releasing a console with a feature that might not face success is definitely a gamble and MS don't want to get too much bold yet it's very understandable IMHO.

nemecb
12-16-05, 11:16 AM
I already don't like these new discs and they aren't even out yet. It's stupid that there's going to be two different formats, just like it's stupid that there are two DVDR formats now. On top of that I read somewhere that they're thinking about continuing to use MPEG2 for the encoding which would be absolute crap. And that's not even getting into the DRM that will require me to buy a new monitor if I want to watch them on my computer (assuming they don't find a way to make that illegal to begin with).

I do think it was a mistake for MS to release this before either of the formats were available though. In a couple of years it may be that having only a DVD drive will be a liability. I guess it's fine for now though and maybe that's what's important, although if they wanted to take over the market from Sony by beating them to market they should have made enough available right away so that everyone who wanted one could get one.

Mr. Hunt
12-16-05, 01:53 PM
I know it's not a new format and I know it's basically two DVD-9's back-to-back, but I'd prefer to just flip a single DVD over rather than have to eject the tray, open the case, take the disc out of the tray, put the disc back in the case, take the second disk out, close case, put disc in tray, and close the tray. It would also save case room, so for a four disc game you'd only need two actual disks and only two disc holders inside the DVD case, which would in also make it so you could fit 8 discs worth of content into a 4 Disc case). But I guess it doesn't matter since apparently it's hard and expensive to make in large numbers.

I would hate that more than anything... when I buy a DVD and open the case to find it is dual sided, I get pissed... I HATE dual sided discs... there is basically no where safe to touch.

Edge
12-16-05, 06:05 PM
Edge, The problem isn't with RPGs, in my opinion. It comes down to other genres that swapping discs becomes annoying, like FPS or Action Games.
Meh, it's a minor annoyance, but hardly anything to get worried about. ALL the original Resident Evil games for the Gamecube were on 2 discs, and even crappy games like Enter the Matrix were. But I highly, highly doubt we'll see any FPS games this generation that fill up a DVD9 disc. It's rare to see an FPS take up anywhere near as much space as something like an RPG: even on the PC with redundant sets of textures for lower quality settings, no FPS has taken up more than half as much space as what a DVD-9 can hold. And remember, most PC games are still distributed on CD-ROM, so I think that limits how large FPS games can get as well (I doubt publishers would be willing to release 10 disc games with 9+ GB install footprints). I am curious as to how much space a game like Perfect Dark Zero or Call of Duty 2 on the Xbox 360 takes up, though.

agentkay
12-16-05, 07:06 PM
Doesn´t Condemned already use up 7GB and thats suppose to be a game that doesn´t have many FMV´s. I´m sure there the games that will be on 2 discs will hit the market sooner than a lot of people are thinking or they´ll keep on making the games even shorter and reduce their size this way.

evilchris
12-16-05, 07:41 PM
MS can't go to HD-DVD for games (or any other format) due to not launching with the it already in place. If they did, they would get hit with such a huge class action lawsuit.

I can see them upgrading for movie compatibility but never will games use it... ever.

The main thing this will hurt is PS3 ports over to other consoles (since it has been a regular for Sony systems to get certain games first), can you imagine the compression or stripping it would require to fit a game that just takes up half a Blu-Ray disk onto DVD9?

1. Specifications are subject to change without notice.

2. Blu-Ray 50GB will never see the light of the day. As a matter of fact, currently HD DVD has higher capacity than the BEST working Blu-Ray discs.

evilchris
12-16-05, 07:49 PM
But they CANT go... There is no ifs, ands or buts... They chose from the beginning to lower the cost of the system (which they already lose alot on) by not including nextgen media support.

DVD9 is outdated btw, 720p TVs are almost common and 1080p TVs are coming out constantly, DVD9 discs can't support movies at those resolutions (while keeping them single discs and adding extras)...

I still do not understand the reason behind this post, it was a well known fact before the console released that MS was not supporting nexgen media... were you just so clueless and out of the loop that you did not know this?

Too bad hardly any "1080p" TV's accept 1080p input signals.

Infinity666
12-16-05, 08:04 PM
I already don't like these new discs and they aren't even out yet. It's stupid that there's going to be two different formats, just like it's stupid that there are two DVDR formats now. On top of that I read somewhere that they're thinking about continuing to use MPEG2 for the encoding which would be absolute crap. And that's not even getting into the DRM that will require me to buy a new monitor if I want to watch them on my computer (assuming they don't find a way to make that illegal to begin with).

I do think it was a mistake for MS to release this before either of the formats were available though. In a couple of years it may be that having only a DVD drive will be a liability. I guess it's fine for now though and maybe that's what's important, although if they wanted to take over the market from Sony by beating them to market they should have made enough available right away so that everyone who wanted one could get one.

The only prob with mpeg2 is inferior compression it can produce the same quality or better in most cases

nrdstrm
12-17-05, 06:45 PM
1. Specifications are subject to change without notice.

2. Blu-Ray 50GB will never see the light of the day. As a matter of fact, currently HD DVD has higher capacity than the BEST working Blu-Ray discs.

Are ya sure?

http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=2262
TDK Ships Blu-ray Disc Samples
Date 16 Dec 2005

What is interesting too is that it is not just your 25GB standard single layer Blu-ray discs that have made it this far either. Dual layer 50GBers are there as well. Both are available in either single write or rewriteable standards and have the company’s innovative Durabis coating we talked about here in May.
---
Also Here and many other storys on the subject : http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/1920

:)

msxyz
12-18-05, 04:06 AM
For a truly next gen HQ format at least I'd expect video frames to be stored individually and not to be compressed/reconstructed with MPEG 2 or 4. BR and HD-DVD are just more of the same and they offer no substantial improvement beside better resolution