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Buenamos
12-26-05, 07:44 PM
Taken from http://xbox360.qj.net/

Richard Huddy, European Developer Relations Manager for ATI, has recently done an interview with Edge Magazine. Richard spoke about the some of the technical aspects of the Xbox 360, and threw a few comments out on the PS3 as well. Basically, in his view, the PS3 has a lot of power, but, in his words, it is “brute force power”, where the Xbox 360 has a much more refined power. “A pretty powerful peice of hardware, but just not elegant”. Here is an excerpt from the interview:

How do you think your work on the 360 measures up to PS3?

I take a fairly robust view on this. The Xbox 360 GPU is designed to be a console GPU - that's what we set out to produce when we started the collaboration with Microsoft; let's build a really powerful, really flexible kind of general purpose GPU which doesn't have performance cliffs where if you do certain things suddenly the performance crashes down by a factor of two or something like that; let's have things pretty predictable and easy to work with, and let's generate about the best performance that we can- so we went for things like the unified shaders and so on. The PS3 has been designed in a quite different way because of the way the process worked. We sat down with Microsoft and said: 'This is what we think we can build', and they said: 'Yes, but what about...?' And they started picking holes in our design, so we came up with a collaborative design. They didn't put a spec in front of us and say: 'How much for this?' That definitely wasn't the dialogue - in fact that would make it more of a monologue; it would be kind of bidding on prices and so on. Instead what we have is a very collaborative design.

With the PS3 my understanding of what happened is that they had three different internal hardware solutions - at one point, for example, as I understand it there was a proposal to use multiple Cell processors just to handle the graphics. And towards the end of the process, as the story goes, they took a look at the three internal tenders and decided than none of them would actually do; none of them would deliver the kind of performance and quality that games programmers could use and would make for a good cost-effective console, so they had to go out and shop around. And one of the places they shopped was Nvidia, and what Nvidia did was say: 'Well, you've got this relatively short timeframe, you've got roughly this kind of budget, I'll tell you what we'll do: we'll do you a good price on what is essentially the 7800GTX'. So that's a PC chip, and if you look at the architecture of the two consoles you can see we've done bizarre things that they haven't. We've built ten megabytes of dedicated ED RAM which knows how to antialias and so on, because that's a specific way of addressing a console's problem. It's bizarre in a PC sense but a special skill for a console builder. Whereas the PS3 has 256 meg of system memory and 256 meg of graphics memory it communicates through what is effectively a PCI express bus. It uses GDDR3 fast memory, it's essentially a PC graphics design bolted on to a Cell processor and 256 meg of fast system memory...

You make it sound so unrefined!

[Laughs.] Well, yeah, but the tragedy is that it is unrefined. There's a lot brute force in there - I'd be the last person to admit it, but the truth is that the 7800GTX is a pretty powerful piece of hardware, but it's not very elegant, it hasn't got the kind of: 'Well, how do we design this to be the best possible console we can build for this money?' Instead it's been put together at the end of quite a complicated process. We have two very different design processes. If Microsoft had come to us and said: 'All right, what are we going to do about this graphics chip, then? Let's sign the contract and let's go', but then we'd got two thirds through and they'd said: 'Look, you guys aren't going to deliver - now what are you going to do?' and then walked away from us, they would have ended up with a design very much like the PS3 in some essential characteristics - it would have had to use bought-in components. And our GPUs instead are custom-designed components, and that's one of the fundamental reasons why I think Xbox 360 technology is likely to outperform PlayStation 3 technology by a pretty healthy margin in the long run.

So how about this one: can those E3 PS3 demos be achieved on Xbox 360?

Well, why not take another combative line here? I think it's more likely that they can be realised on an Xbox 360 than they can be on a PS3. Those things are movies generated using whatever DCC software the houses had in mind. The Epic demo was running on a PC, and it was done using an early 7800 in SLI mode, so that was a high-end PC demo, but the movies were generated as movies and dressed up as: 'This is what you can expect from a PS3', but that's probably overstating what the PS3 can do a little bit. Indeed, it's well beyond what we expect the PS3 to be able to do. So I guess we'll just have to see what happens..."

GREAT interview. Whenever I speak to anyone about what they think about the PS3's capabilities, I've always said that I bet they will perform similarly, it's all about the exclusive titles.

Bad_Boy
12-26-05, 08:08 PM
Pr Fud.

Sazar
12-26-05, 08:13 PM
PR fud yes, but it hardly means he doesn't make a few telling points.

That said, he doesn't know how long nvidia and sony had a collaborative effort going on.

npras42
12-26-05, 08:43 PM
Look honestly I have no idea about how powerful they are compared to each other, and I won't until about 12 months after release when second wave games begin to be released....

However, if I was to put my own opinion on it I think most of this stuff about the hardware being roughly equal and the "X360 being more refined whereas PS3 is brute force" is PR BS, by all who say it...

I know the great Hideo Kojima has said similar things in recent times but I just dont buy it. The two consoles are sooo totally different architecture and they were developed in what seems vastly different timeframes. I just don't believe they can be so similar in end performance (overall).

There will be a difference and it will be telling IMHO! Not as big as the difference between XBOX and PS2's power which in the end meant very little to console sales, but there will be a difference. I will bet my left pinky on it, and for a guitarist and wannabe surgeon, that is a hefty wager! ;) If I was to put money on it (and this wouldn't be a very big bet at all), it would be on the PS3s side.

evilchris
12-27-05, 01:09 AM
Here's all I know:

PS3 = vaporware

X360 = in my house with 8 games.

|MaguS|
12-27-05, 01:24 AM
This quote completly nullifies the interview...

The Epic demo was running on a PC, and it was done using an early 7800 in SLI mode, so that was a high-end PC demo, but the movies were generated as movies and dressed up as: 'This is what you can expect from a PS3', but that's probably overstating what the PS3 can do a little bit. Indeed, it's well beyond what we expect the PS3 to be able to do.

First, The Epic demo was not a movie or dressed up. It was a REALTIME demo running on the Cell CPU, it just was not running on the RSX but insted a 6800U SLI (Not 7800SLI like he says). Second, after reading the interview on UT2007 and having Epic themselves say that the PS3 version will look just as good and run better then the PC version completly over-rides his statment on "overstating" what the PS3 can do.

I love how he makes it sound like he was right there when Nvidia and Sony were in talks. He makes it sound like he knows all the inner workings of the RSX and how they planned it... man he must also work for Nvidia!

PeterJensen
12-27-05, 03:09 AM
Well i got condemmed yesterday for my x360. That game alone is just amazing. If they only get better i dont see anny problem for the X360.

msxyz
12-27-05, 03:59 AM
Only engineers should be allowed to speak ;)

These talks from the marketing guys are so predictable...

agentkay
12-27-05, 05:22 AM
Bleh... PR BS. This sh!t actually turns me away from a X360 purchase (in mid Jan. or whenever the black premiums will be available) and I might instead rather wait for the PS3.

PeterJensen
12-27-05, 05:59 AM
Bleh... PR BS. This sh!t actually turns me away from a X360 purchase (in mid Jan. or whenever the black premiums will be available) and I might instead rather wait for the PS3.

Talk to the hand...its the only one that care.

agentkay
12-27-05, 06:12 AM
Talk to the hand...its the only one that care.

So what? Thats my opinion after reading this fud. :p

PeterJensen
12-27-05, 07:03 AM
So what? Thats my opinion after reading this fud. :p

Well not buying the x360 beacuse of this statement is lame. What about when then chinnese sony master jedi speaks bull****?

|MaguS|
12-27-05, 07:33 AM
I see a difference here, Sony has stated that the x360 is weaker and they dont see it as a threat, Not anything as uninformed and just out right lying like this statement. I mean he says that the UT demo was a movie when it was shown in 100% realtime and even paused and controlled in person. He speaks like he was at the Nvidia meeting when Sony and Nvidia were talking design and specs.

I can understand when a PR spokeman states opinions but here hes talking like he stating facts, which many points are just wrong. His technical statements are also false and just full of PR crap. He talks about performance bottlenecks on the PS3 when the x360 has an even larger one between the GPU and CPU. Yes the EDRAM has an enormous bandwidth but considering that the CPU and GPU have to share the systems main memory, it creates a huge bottleneck. That is the reason Sony and Nvidia chose to go the dedicated RAM route.

Hell, He even says that the PS3 is using a 7800GTX which Nvidia themselves said is not the case. The RSX is a more advanced GPU then the G70 so says Nvidia on this so how can he, who has no knowledge of teh GPU outside what nvidia and sony have disclosed, state the opposite?

saturnotaku
12-27-05, 07:57 AM
I see a difference here, Sony has stated that the x360 is weaker and they dont see it as a threat, Not anything as uninformed and just out right lying like this statement. I mean he says that the UT demo was a movie when it was shown in 100% realtime and even paused and controlled in person. He speaks like he was at the Nvidia meeting when Sony and Nvidia were talking design and specs.

I can understand when a PR spokeman states opinions but here hes talking like he stating facts, which many points are just wrong. His technical statements are also false and just full of PR crap. He talks about performance bottlenecks on the PS3 when the x360 has an even larger one between the GPU and CPU. Yes the EDRAM has an enormous bandwidth but considering that the CPU and GPU have to share the systems main memory, it creates a huge bottleneck. That is the reason Sony and Nvidia chose to go the dedicated RAM route.

Hell, He even says that the PS3 is using a 7800GTX which Nvidia themselves said is not the case. The RSX is a more advanced GPU then the G70 so says Nvidia on this so how can he, who has no knowledge of teh GPU outside what nvidia and sony have disclosed, state the opposite?

QFT on all of this. Very well said. For saying those outright untruths, Huddy should be fired. Hell, he would be if he were working for an agency.

agentkay
12-27-05, 08:07 AM
Well not buying the x360 beacuse of this statement is lame. What about when then chinnese sony master jedi speaks bull****?

Lame or not, canīt I decide for what I spend my money for? ;) But anyway, Iīll explain. I never said that this interview *certainly* (I said *might*) will change my plan and wonīt buy the X360 but rather wait for the PS3. Actually I was pretty set and wanted buy it as soon as the black ones come out , but I have NO idea when they come out. If it will be in Jan. then the chances are still very good that I will go ahead and buy it, but if it will be later, then Iīll rather wait a month or two and see what Sonys PS3 is all about.

Again, if I sounded that like I take this interview and change my plan of purchase because of it, then I apologize. It annoyed me and in the moment of annoyance I wrote I what I did. Itīs like when I have to read crazy X360 fanboy posts that flame the PS3 or PCs ridicoulsy (and I donīt mean people on Nvnews), posts like that also annoy me and rather push me away to become a part of a community like that.

Stuff like this annoys me but it doesnīt influence what I do with my money in the end. At most/or worst, Iīll end up waiting till the PS3 comes out and decide then.

MUYA
12-27-05, 08:30 AM
Guys on topic banter only ya thanks

nemecb
12-27-05, 11:40 AM
Sounds to me like he's just repeating some rumors that he heard. Like someone else said, how does he know what went on between Sony and nVidia?

Which doesn't mean he's wrong, but it means that we need some more substantial proof than what he's giving.

Buenamos
12-27-05, 11:56 AM
This quote completly nullifies the interview...
First, The Epic demo was not a movie or dressed up. It was a REALTIME demo running on the Cell CPU, it just was not running on the RSX but insted a 6800U SLI (Not 7800SLI like he says).

I think you've misread the interview. He says the Epic was being run on a high-end pc system while everything else, were just movies. Did you not see all the previews PS3 showed off for their system? Basically almost all of them were CGI other than Epic and EA games. He may have misquoted the actual system specs, but I still stand by what he says. IN MY OPINION, I don't think games will actually look like any of those CGI movies that were released. ESPECIALLY the Killzone trailer despite what the developers said. They're just creating hype.

I see a difference here, Sony has stated that the x360 is weaker and they dont see it as a threat, Not anything as uninformed and just out right lying like this statement. I mean he says that the UT demo was a movie when it was shown in 100% realtime and even paused and controlled in person. He speaks like he was at the Nvidia meeting when Sony and Nvidia were talking design and specs.

I have seen the E3 footage, and yes it was realtime, and yes it was amazing. But both Sony AND MS are supporting the Unreal 3 engine so it isn't anything exclusive. (Gears of War)

Sony has stated that the x360 is weaker and they don't see it as a threat. No threat at all? Now they are outright lying in that statement.

I can understand when a PR spokeman states opinions but here hes talking like he stating facts, which many points are just wrong.

Which points?

His technical statements are also false and just full of PR crap. He talks about performance bottlenecks on the PS3 when the x360 has an even larger one between the GPU and CPU. Yes the EDRAM has an enormous bandwidth but considering that the CPU and GPU have to share the systems main memory, it creates a huge bottleneck. That is the reason Sony and Nvidia chose to go the dedicated RAM route.

Maybe it's just me, but where in the article does he even say the word 'bottleneck'? I'll agree with you that the 360 is bottlenecked though. It doesn't mean that is one hell of a system in terms of performance.

Hell, He even says that the PS3 is using a 7800GTX which Nvidia themselves said is not the case. The RSX is a more advanced GPU then the G70 so says Nvidia on this so how can he, who has no knowledge of teh GPU outside what nvidia and sony have disclosed, state the opposite?

He says the PS3 has, and I quote, "essentially the 7800GTX" which is what every other interview I've ever seen says. From what I've seen, all the articles say that the GPU performance will be similar to the 7800GTX.

I dunno, both companies are obviously putting statements out there that are complete BS. But, I've seen a lot more statements from developers which are much more reputable than the Reps. Don't get me wrong, I think the PS3 is gonna be VERY powerful, if not slightly more powerful than the x360, but not by much. Sony makes it sound as though it's going to blow the 360 away, and that it's no threat at all. Nothing more than BS.

Anyways, I'm pumped for the PS3 launch and it's going to rock, but I doubt it'll be anything mind-blowing, just as the x360 was. (Talking from a PC gamer's perspective) Can't wait to get it on launch day.

Badboy_12345
12-27-05, 12:48 PM
Bleh... PR BS. This sh!t actually turns me away from a X360 purchase (in mid Jan. or whenever the black premiums will be available) and I might instead rather wait for the PS3.

I see u live in europe u will get the ps3 by ah.. 2007 (xmastong)

Morrow
12-27-05, 04:03 PM
The fun factor of console games till now have never been determined by the power of the hardware but rather by the games itself. This will not change.

It is of no importance whether the Xbox 360 is faster than the PS3 or not, the only thing which counts are the games and if the Xbox 1 is any indication, the Xbox 360 will loose by a great margin against the PS3.

This is different for PC games and I still cannot bear any interview done by ATI's self-declared man of reason.

GamerGuyX
12-27-05, 04:17 PM
the only thing which counts are the games and if the Xbox 1 is any indication, the Xbox 360 will loose by a great margin against the PS3.

Says who?

jAkUp
12-27-05, 05:02 PM
Yes games are important, but we are not debating games in this thread.

And most good games are designed for cross platform. I prefer the Xbox over the PS2.

Slybri
12-28-05, 02:34 AM
What I gathered from that Huddy fellah was that the PS3 design wasn't more or less powerful, it was just not as "elegant." At some point in the development they made a major change and had to compromise. In the long run, the best graphics will come from the developers and coders who learn to use the systems to their full potential.
I don't know much about these things, but if the PS3's Nvidia GPU is similar to a PC's, maybe it would be easier to code for earlier on, since developers have more experience with PC GPUs. The first wave of games for the 360 don't look that impressive to me, but I'm sure they'll get better. If the PS3 release titles look anything near as good as promised, it will own. Seems like it's all about who can run the Unreal3 engine better anyways.
It's hard to tell which console will have the best looking games in the next few years, but I'm hoping the PC makes them both look lame!
WASD 4 life, yo! (xmasgrin)

Mr. Hunt
12-28-05, 01:21 PM
Problem with the PC is it will not have Metal Gear Solid 4 ;)... MGS4 FTW!

evilchris
12-28-05, 01:27 PM
I think the real problem with the PC currently is the games flat out suck. They are nothing more than technology demos trying to one-up the other in graphics. The actual "game" part of the game is an afterthought.