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Typedef Enum
08-12-02, 02:23 AM
Let me make this a little brief until I get a little more time...

As I have mentioned on a few occasions, I'm using the Apple 22" Cinema. Overall, I really like the thing; however, the gaming experience has been a little more sour over time. The quality, in some ways, masks the performance.

I can honestly say that the issue wasn't so much in ghosting, as you typically see reported. In the end, I did some more digging and found out that the Apple display uses the LG 22" panel, and the 'official' specs place the response time around 60 ms. If you do the math, this translates to about 17 FPS (max). If you're new to LCD concepts, the display doesn't have a "refresh rate," like CRT's. Instead, you want to look @ the amount of time it takes the transistors to change their state, and this boils down to response time.

So, if the response time is 60 ms, theoretically, the display is only capable of delivering 17 frames per second...despite the fact that the system/3D card can pump out, say, 200 FPS.

The LCD that I just bought has been given rave reviews by a lot of users, particularly as it relates to gaming. Again, if you believe the specs, the 25 ms refresh rate would translate to around 40 FPS, which is @ least in the neighborhood of acceptable performance.

I'm expecting to receive the thing in the mail by Tuesday (hell, I hope it comes tomorrow!), so I will update the thread with my initial impressions.

ascully
08-12-02, 04:40 AM
I use a KDS RAD-5 LCD display as my second monitor in a duel desktop setup. Its great for this use but I would never use it as my main display thats for sure.

http://www.ascully.com/images/reviews/atiradeon9000pro/duelmonitor.jpg

Typedef Enum
08-12-02, 05:04 AM
Interesting...I have heard some decent things about the KDS displays.

Althought the size is obviously a factor, how has it been for gaming?

I think this is (duh!) the thing that's most difficult to put a finger on. With CRT's, if the display looks good on the desktop, you can pretty much figure the same will hold true when gaming. With LCD's, that's obviously totally untrue. I have seen many a LCD that looks fantastic on the desktop, only to totally suck when playing a game.

A very good thread(s) over @ ArsTechnica involves this very thing...LCD -> Gaming. As I continued to read as much as I could find on the net, it became utterly clear that there has really been a massively low amount of emphasis on LCD reviews. Anandtech has even stated this very thing, so I'm hopeful that the lowering cost will allow for more reviews.

The Toms's Hardware review was particularly bad simply because they used too many shotty LCD's, many of which are pretty old...

ascully
08-12-02, 05:08 AM
I actually love the KDS screen for desktop work and as the second monitor but it totally sucks for gaming. Black isnt black its a kinda grey color and in a dark level on a FPS its totally impossible to play with.

I really recommend it as a second monitor though for more desktop space its cool :)

fantomas
08-12-02, 06:54 AM
I have had a 14" toshiba LCD, as a notebook, and I can honestly say it wasnt the gpu in the card making Doom look bad, it is the lack of pixel changing speed on the display.

As for the Apple 22", I have seen graphic design work, such as photoshop, and it looks...great. Unless its in any ambient light area (like a normal workspace for instance) and then you have to *adjust* the settings, beef them up, like any LCD. The SGI f220 below is possibly the most CAD oriented LCD, just from the fact its Silicon Graphics catering to its super high end user base. I would like to see how it performs.










Plasma sounds more promising as these displays are clear in all lighting conditions.

Evil Homer
08-12-02, 07:49 AM
I was in the same exact spot as you Typedef Enum. I had a nice monitor (sony fw900 24') but the 16:9 resolution left 99% of my games all stretched out weird cause there are very few playable HD resolutions. So I researched for about 2 weeks non stop about a large flat screen lcd. I decided on the viewsonic VX-900. The specs rate it at a >20ms response time. Superclear MVA tech is supposed to be the reason for that. I recieved the monitor with ZERO dead pixels! Yeah! From newegg.com. The ghosting is not very noticable at all playing urban terror and such. THe colors are SO much more vibrant than my lcd. Also, the contrast ratio is VERY imporatant. Mine is like 550:1 i believe. The blacks are very black and white are perfectly white. Quite nice. 19inch also, so im equiv to a 21inch almost with a so much smaller footprint. Using DVI is very important also. Dont get an lcd w/o DVI out on your vid card and in on the monitor. Price was about 1100.00 i believe. I would give this monitor 9/10 stars. Love it!

Evil Homer
08-12-02, 07:51 AM
Err. i meant colors more vibrant than my CRT!!! ITs to damn early right now. hehe

sh*tshot
08-12-02, 08:00 AM
I have been using a LCD for my desktop for the last two years and the only way to use it is by using the DVI connection without the DVI connectiuon the Image quality is ****!

The DVI connection gives your Image quality a 100% boost and Lucky for me my LCD has a Refresh rate of 85Mhz! which is not bad! Had a 25" Plasma Display from work that I used @ Home and could not get it pass 60Mhz Refresh rate without it Locking up! Hehe

When buying a LCD look out for two Things that are a must

1) What's the Refresh rate
2) DVI Connection

pelly
08-12-02, 08:04 AM
For the past few months, I've been using a Gateway FPD1530 15" LCD. I believe this model has a 30ms response time...if I tracked down the original make of the monitor correctly. :D

I could not believe the appearance of the screen when I first fired things up. Everything seemed so much more vibrant and alive...Filled with dread, I fired up a game or two and to my surprise, I didn't see any appreciable ghosting. The one area that is absolutely killing me ( and causing me to look for another CRT ) is that the resolution is limited to 1024*768. I just can't live without higher resolution, regardless of how pretty things look. :(

I have a friend here at work who bought 2 of the top of the line Dell LCD's and he can run 1600*1200 without a hitch. After seeing it in action at the last LAN party, I can attest that CRT's ahve nothing over this monitor!

Typedef, you are going to be a happy camper with that monitor!
:D

bargabr8
08-12-02, 08:05 AM
Ive got a Princeton 751, and I like it. Gaming isnt a problem, but it just takes a second to get used to the response time delay (ghosting, i think) that happens during fast action. Other than that, the display is fine, clear text, excellent colors. Brightness and contrast are great, too, but in very dark scenes, it can take a little to get used to. Ive watched plenty of movies on it, too, with no visual problems. Cost me $760 usd including shipping, an excellent deal for a 17.4 incher. I just bought an MSI ti4400 to go along with it so I can finally find out how much better DVI is :)

8ender
08-12-02, 08:31 AM
I just recently bought the futurepower FP17 17" LCD Panel. Now most of you are probably balking at the prospect of a no-name panel but for the price (900 CDN) I got quite a deal.

If you can find this panel for sale, buy it immediately. It is actually an LG panel in disguise. It has DVI/Analog, USB Onboard and a 30ms refresh rate.

I am quite pleased at this panels performance and, combined with the DVI out on my Radeon 8500 games such as warcraft 3 have never looked better.

Also be wary that many panels require proper color calibration before gaming can be enjoyable. The grey/brown muckiness seen with most panels can be corrected by applying the correct gamma and color settings in your video cards control panel.

If you are going to buy a panel, buy at least a 17" panel. The 15" Panels aren't worth it and the native resolution of 1024x768 is too little considering the ATi r300 and possibly the NV30 are going to make 1280x1024 gaming at full quality a reality.

Hoodwink
08-12-02, 09:02 AM
I have been using a Samsung 191t for about a month now. The 2d/desktop enviroment is top notch....the quality is incredible esp. w/ MS cleartype enabled in XP. The DVI connection gives it such an edge in quality over analog, that my friends can't believe the difference from my old 19" CTX VL 950 which is setup right beside my new LCD baby :-). The colors are bright and vivid, blacks are very black. The brightness level is very high also...much higher than my CRT. Now for the important part....gaming. Samsung claims to have a 25ms response time and I would say that is fairly accurate...maybe a little closer to 30ms but nonetheless its fast, but not fast enough from what I am used to for FPS. JK2 ghosts and so does Quake 3. Any game I try that has a lot of "movement" you get the ghosting. "Ghosting" is not an accurate term for some FPS, its more like a slight blurring effect while you are playing. It is still very playable however. Now let me tell you where it really shines for gaming, Warcraft 3....its absolutely beautiful on this thing esp w/ the DVI connection and my TI4600.....the quality is amazing. I have WC3 running in the monitors native resolution (1280x1024) and let me tell you it is a sight to behold. All RTS games I have tried look incredible on this thing due to the low FPS. Another game that looks nice and is very playable is Everquest. Since these are the 2 games I play the most gaming has not been too bad. When UT2003 comes out I will just be playing it on my 2nd box w/ my 19" CRT and TI4400...which is the formula I will follow until a LCD that does gaming just as well as a CRT comes along. To conclude, even though I am missing some of the game functionality that I am accustomed to, I can say this whole heartedly, I will NEVER go back to a CRT as my main display....LCD is the way to go. One more thing I want to mention....since using this LCD my eyestrain has dropped greatly...it was worth the $1,000 price just for that.

-Hoodwink

Here is a review also:

http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=50132

FYI: This is where I bought mine, I have no issues with these guys...shipped fast..and not a single dead pixel in mine.

http://www.neqx.com/

8ender
08-12-02, 09:04 AM
I hear you on the warcraft 3 thing, that game looks splendid on my LCD at native resolution.

See, my panel claims 25ms as well but ghosts slightly in quake 3 and FPS games as well. I kind of like it though, its like a hardware based motion blur effect.

You get used to it and after a while, it actaully easier for me to spot moving objects because they ghost more than the background.

----
edit:

Also, any FPS involving sniping is wicked on a flat panel as per the background stays sharp and any movement is really easy to spot by the ghosting. Sniping in CS has never been better.

TF4
08-12-02, 09:11 AM
I have been using the 181T for about 4 months. I play every game on it, SOFII, Quake III, JK2 etc. It is fast enough for me and I don't notice "ghosting" If there is ghosting maybe I don't know what it is or realize. I replaced my Sony 19" G400 with this LCD and will never go back! :)

Fawzib
08-12-02, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Evil Homer
I was in the same exact spot as you Typedef Enum. I had a nice monitor (sony fw900 24') but the 16:9 resolution left 99% of my games all stretched out weird cause there are very few playable HD resolutions. So I researched for about 2 weeks non stop about a large flat screen lcd. I decided on the viewsonic VX-900. The specs rate it at a >20ms response time. Superclear MVA tech is supposed to be the reason for that. I recieved the monitor with ZERO dead pixels! Yeah! From newegg.com. The ghosting is not very noticable at all playing urban terror and such. THe colors are SO much more vibrant than my lcd. Also, the contrast ratio is VERY imporatant. Mine is like 550:1 i believe. The blacks are very black and white are perfectly white. Quite nice. 19inch also, so im equiv to a 21inch almost with a so much smaller footprint. Using DVI is very important also. Dont get an lcd w/o DVI out on your vid card and in on the monitor. Price was about 1100.00 i believe. I would give this monitor 9/10 stars. Love it!

I got the exact same monitor and I don't have any ghosting problems. I have tested it with Serious Sam 2, Neverwinter Nights, and Jedi Outcast (looks awesome). Also the max resolution is 1280x1024 so is not that bad. The colors are incredibly vivid, the change in how the image looked from CRT to LCD was amazing. I'm really happy with it.

8ender
08-12-02, 09:31 AM
some people notice ghosting, some people dont.

Its somewhat like the 60hz vs. 75hz refresh rate issue. Some people can see the flickering at 60hz and it drives them nuts (me) some people dont notice the difference.

Likewise, some peoples eyes are better attuned to slight variations in picture (ghosting, flickering, framerate) and can see the ghosting.

Its like my friend, who claims there is a noticable difference in "smoothness" between 30fps and 60fps.

ManicDVLN
08-12-02, 10:33 AM
LCDs are excellent when they're from Samsung. I say this not because I have bias towards other LCDs, it's simply on experience.

The best LCD bargain you can get right now is a Samsung 170T, I have one, and it's trurly worth it, especially if you have a DVI output gfx card, cause digital is the only way to go with LCDs.

The most important specs you should look for an LCD is it's access time cause that's the only thing that really matters in gaming so you wont get any ghosting or flickering.

Second thing to look at is the native resolution of the LCD with its maximum refresh rate. Best being 85hz at native res of 1280x1200.

Third is the viewing angle, how far of an angle can you look at the LCD without being wiped out of smudged and blunt colors. This really depends on the quality of the LCD and it's internal technology. Best being 170 degrees +

Go with Samsung, they are the king in LCDs. Canada #1!!!

pelly
08-12-02, 10:41 AM
Evidently, someone here has never even seen an Aplle Cinema Display...If they had, they would know that the picture quality is absolutely stunning...The only downfall to these monitors is their response time which makes them a very bad choice for gaming...as such, the best choice is the top-end Dell...

For any other application, I'm sure the Cinema Display and the top-end Dell would be at the top of my list...

:D

Matt
08-12-02, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by sh*tshot

When buying a LCD look out for two Things that are a must

1) What's the Refresh rate
2) DVI Connection

LCD monitors don't even have a refresh rate, so you won't be able to tell the difference between 60hz and 85hz on one. Since LCD operate without flicker, this means no more eye strain from extensive use.

Things you do want to look for in a LCD (in order of priority) are:

1) Pixel Response Time (Lower is better)
2) Contrast Ratio (Higher is better)
3) Brightness (Higher is better)
4) Horizontal/Vertical Viewing Angles (Higher is better)

Those are the four most important. The rest are optionals, budget, and personal preferences. An ideal pixel response time for gamers is 25ms or lower. Contrast ratio should be 350:1 or higher, and Brightness should be no lower than 250cd/m.

I agree with a previous comment made here, in that you really have to adjust the gamma, brightness, and colors to get it just right with actual colors being displayed. I suggest using a program like Colorific/3Deep.

I've been using a Cornea Systems MP704 17" LCD monitor for a couple months now. Suffice to say, I couldn't go back to a CRT monitor. It's great for everyday use, looks great, works great, plays great in games. Mine has a pixel response time of 25ms, contrast ratio of 400:1 and brightness at 250cd/m. I paid $499 for it. Here's a shot of the monitor on my desk:

http://www.3dgpu.com/misc_images/matt/room5.jpg

Matt
08-12-02, 10:54 AM
I agree with Pelly on the Apple Cinema, while the response time isn't on par with what's out now, it is still a very excellent LCD monitor. It ranks right up there with SGI's old LCD monitor, both excelling at image quality, features, and solid viewing angles considering the age of the tech. I've seen one in action before at a friend's house, and I had to pick my jaw off the floor after seeing one.

8ender
08-12-02, 11:00 AM
yeah, the apple screens are designed for apples biggest markets. digital artistry.

To compare them to other panels in response time would be unfair. Apple designed these panels to be perfect for static and slow moving images.

They were not designed for gaming.

ManicDVLN
08-12-02, 11:39 AM
So people who going to make digital movies will render animation on 60ms access time? I have seen the display many times, but i am not one of those people who gazes at the size like a deer stunned by the glare of a comming truck on the highway. I am not impressed by it's looks nor it's features by it's hefty price tag.

Cereal-Killer
08-12-02, 11:43 AM
Just like ManicDVLN, I own the Samsung 170t (25ms, DVI). I bought it after reading the review on EnvyNews. There is no ghosting in any of the FPS I play, and even though my 19" CRT had a slight edge when it comes to gaming, it's not nearly enough to make me go back...

Typedef Enum
08-12-02, 11:56 AM
I bought the Apple LCD simply because I wanted to see it in action. Money wasn't/isn't an issue, and that was pretty much the bottom line. I _knew_ going in that the displays, themselves, would be dated, but needed to see it for myself.

I grabbed it from Frye's, and they have a 30-day return policy...Guess what's going back the moment I receive the Dell?

The only way, IMHO, to really get a good feel for the current crop of LCD's is to take one home and give it a whirl. At this point in time, there simply is a general lack of solid reviews...Therefore, the only thing you can really do is get a feel from actual users.
Even then, you will see differences of opinion on similar panels.

Person1: "The Samsung 210T is the best display I've ever seen! Gaming has never been better"

Person2: "I was terribly dissapointed with the Samsung 210T. For gaming, it just didn't cut the mustard."

8ender
08-12-02, 12:44 PM
good luck with the dell, still, the apple displays have they're place in the market.

I use apple LCD's at work and they cant be beat for 2D quality.

Lemme know how the dell goes, I might be picking one up.