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Zelda_fan
02-20-06, 12:39 AM
Ok, I did some research and here is the deal.

The XBOX360 runs games in 720p - ie 1280x720.

Take a look at the oblivion screenshots that look like ass and look at the picture resolution.

Here are some ass screenshots for reference:
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/702/702493/img_2931857.html
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/702/702493/img_2931858.html
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ob_xbox360/obx27B.jpg
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/702/702493/img_3273368.html

notice the resolution? 1024x576. IN other words it's a 1280x720 shoot scaled down with a poor scaling algorithim.

Now here are some sweet next-gen looking ones:
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/702/702493/img_3174497.html
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/702/702493/img_3174498.html
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/702/702493/img_3174499.html
http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/702/702493/img_3076478.html

notice the resolution? true 720p.

I rest my case

jAkUp
02-20-06, 12:54 AM
Now compare those to this. Its not the resolution or jaggies, its just the overall geometry in the recent shots, just like scaled down, no HDR, thin forest, etc. It looks like Morrow 1.5.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=16270&d=1140144877

CaptNKILL
02-20-06, 12:54 AM
To be honest, I dont see much difference in the quality of the shots... some of the first ones you showed look pretty good to me. The low resolution does look crappy though. Bad compression doesnt help any.

BTW, Ive been playing Morrowind all day... what a sweet game to just pick up every once in a while (after beating it of course ;)).

Psst... jAkUp, thats the same shot he posted. Same resolution and everything. I will admit the grass looks pretty chunky in that one though.

Zelda_fan
02-20-06, 01:04 AM
Now compare those to this. Its not the resolution or jaggies, its just the overall geometry in the recent shots, just like scaled down, no HDR, etc. It looks like Morrow 1.5.


I posted that pic under the "ass" shots. My point is maybe the poor resolution scaling might distort the image enough to where it looks like the geometry is lower.


Also, the devs have said a few days ago the game will look exactly like the e3 videos (except for video 1 in the jail due to shadowing). Believe me, the videos look MUCH MUCH better than the "ass" screenshots.

Q
02-20-06, 01:06 AM
If I wanted to see ass I would be in the "Babes" thread. :D

jAkUp
02-20-06, 01:10 AM
hehe :D

I actually think the game will look alot better than we are led to believe by some of the screenies, but its still fun to debate :) I just think that Betheseda is just really, really bad at taking good screenshots sometimes :)

Zelda_fan
02-20-06, 01:14 AM
hehe :D

I actually think the game will look alot better than we are led to believe by some of the screenies, but its still fun to debate :) I just think that Betheseda is just really, really bad at taking good screenshots sometimes :)

here is a good post I found on the elder scrolls website explaining the poor quality of the screenshots:

In all seriousness, a lot of people (including me) who believe Beth when they say there’s been no dumbing down of the visuals are really curious as to why they selected shots that look like they were taken at medium-to-low settings or at bad angles.

I thought a bit about it and the best I can come up with is this:

We fans have only seen a handful of screenshots and a few minutes of video here and there. We analyze everything…and then analyze our analyses just to be sure. Our entire concept of what the game will look like comes from these rare glimpses we’ve poured over and ripped to shreds in thread after thread.

Then there’s Beth. Let’s say they just want to release a shot of the dialogue system. They chose one and drop it in the newsletter. When you’ve been working with, playing, and play-testing a game for years, you know what the darn game looks like. A pic that’s taken at a funky angle or that, for some other inexplicable reason, doesn’t look quite as beautiful as others, wouldn’t set off the same alarms in their minds as it would in many of ours.

Let’s take Angelina Jolie as an example. Yes, Angelina Jolie. Saying Angelina Jolie is beautiful is like saying the Atlantic Ocean is wet. We all know what she looks like. We’ve seen her in lots of movies. Now let’s say one day you see her in a movie and she just doesn’t look that hot. Bad hair day, bad camera angle, whatever. You know Angelina Jolie is a knockout, so you’re not thinking “Wow, she got ugly,” you’re thinking “Bad hair day, bad camera angle, whatever….” That is, if you think about it at all, since you already have it well ingrained in your mind what she really looks like.

Now picture you’re some Dev and you decide you want to release a pic of the dialogue system. You’ve seen this game played every which way almost every day for years. Would you even notice that the pic, for whatever confluence of silly reasons, happens to be below par in some regards? Maybe, but maybe not. “Bad hair day, bad camera angle, whatever….” if you even think about it at all.

I’d bet they had no idea so many forumers would have such a negative reaction to the newsletter shots. It would explain why they chose to release shots that, to us, make the game look less spectacular. It’s the Angelina Jolie effect.

CaptNKILL
02-20-06, 01:16 AM
hehe :D

I actually think the game will look alot better than we are led to believe by some of the screenies, but its still fun to debate :) I just think that Betheseda is just really, really bad at taking good screenshots sometimes :)
Yeah there were some horrid Morrowind shots back in the day... the game itself is actually damn pretty. I think some times they just take screens of the worst places possible so people arent disapointed when they find a crappy looking place in the game :D

jAkUp
02-20-06, 01:26 AM
lol, maybe so, at least all these crappy screenies can makes us wowed by the final product! Hopefully :)

And whats funny is I never even played the original Morrowind, but I have done so much reading lately, both on Morrowind, and Oblivion, that I am interested, and will definetely get it :)

Back when Morrowind was released, I was a broke high school student. The only games I played were demos because I couldn't afford games :( I only bought a select few that I really, really wanted.

msxyz
02-20-06, 02:15 AM
In some shots offset/normal mapping is absent from the "hard" stone-like surfaces.

This just contradicts with an old interview with G.Carter which said that "every surface has some sort of detail mapping added to it"

Toss3
02-20-06, 02:36 AM
here is a good post I found on the elder scrolls website explaining the poor quality of the screenshots:
Heh bad hair day; a game doesn't have bad days, like for instance if I were to play half-life2 on every day for a week I bet you it would look the same every day. So let's just face it: the game won't look as incredible as we thought! The other aspects of the game will still be there, only with worse graphics. It's not all that bad really if you look at it from that perspective.:o

Tork64
02-20-06, 04:02 AM
hehe :D

I actually think the game will look alot better than we are led to believe by some of the screenies.

Yep

jolle
02-20-06, 05:14 AM
Well the graphics DOES seem to have been nerfed a bit, something that seems to happen to alot of games these days.. spose the devs gets all carried away, and then has to optimize half of it away before release hehe..
but its good enough for me, and if its anywhere as good as morrowind Im happy..
trying to keep low expectations anyhow,to not get disapointed, which is hard..

I do find it hard to belive that the Xbox360 should be able to handle the same texture load as a modern PC.. I mean it has 512mb of shared memory doesnt it? (maybe Im remembering wrong), and we got atleast 1gb RAM + 128-512mb VRAM..

Superfly
02-20-06, 05:14 AM
try before you buy people.

Knot3D
02-20-06, 07:08 AM
Resolution scale down indeed seems to be one of the many reasons why it looks less good.

The main attributes to this worstening are imo lack of rt softshadowing on all objects, HDR and normal mapping.

Zelda_fan
02-20-06, 08:14 AM
Heh bad hair day; a game doesn't have bad days, like for instance if I were to play half-life2 on every day for a week I bet you it would look the same every day. So let's just face it: the game won't look as incredible as we thought! The other aspects of the game will still be there, only with worse graphics. It's not all that bad really if you look at it from that perspective.:o

you ever play HL2 with the settings on low? The games looks like ass. You ever play Oblivion with the settings on low? The game looks like ass.

|MaguS|
02-20-06, 08:22 AM
But you can't lower console games settings... all those shots are from the console version.

And if you want to compare console versions... HL2 on the Xbox doesn't look too drastically different from the PC version... atleast not as drastic difference like Early Oblivion shots and current shots.

agentkay
02-20-06, 08:33 AM
I was thinking about the resolution theory as well and its definitly possible. Now the real question is, will the game be "true" 720p (1280x720) at all times, or an upscaled 720p like PGR3 but in Oblivions case from 1024x576? Not that it matters to me, because I will buy the PC version anyway, but I can imagine a lot of Xbox folks would be mighty pissed. Another game that seems to play the resolution trick is King Kong for the X360.

BTW, when you downsize a 1280x720 picture to 1024x576 in Photoshop with the Bicubic algorithm, the smaller picture actually looks better! Textures that were blury before, look sharper, areas which had AA issues, look better, etc.

Zelda_fan
02-20-06, 08:45 AM
But you can't lower console games settings... all those shots are from the console version.


yes you can. Bethesda are the ones developing the game so they can lower the resolution to whatever they want. And who says the "console" screenshots were actually taken on a console? They could just have the widescreen aspect ratio and be taken on a computer. Either way, the devs have said over and over again that the final game will look like the e3 video (with the exception of jail cell video #1) which is much better than the past few screenshots.

Zelda_fan
02-20-06, 08:46 AM
I was thinking about the resolution theory as well and its definitly possible. Now the real question is, will the game be "true" 720p (1280x720) at all times, or an upscaled 720p like PGR3 but in Oblivions case from 1024x576? Not that it matters to me, because I will buy the PC version anyway, but I can imagine a lot of Xbox folks would be mighty pissed. Another game that seems to play the resolution trick is King Kong for the X360.

BTW, when you downsize a 1280x720 picture to 1024x576 in Photoshop with the Bicubic algorithm, the smaller picture actually looks better! Textures that were blury before, look sharper, areas which had AA issues, look better, etc.

oblivion supports true native 720p, as well as native 1080i.

CaptNKILL
02-20-06, 08:47 AM
Resolution scale down indeed seems to be one of the many reasons why it looks less good.

The main attributes to this worstening are imo lack of rt softshadowing on all objects, HDR and normal mapping.
They have never shown real time object shadows in screen shots. The only place its ever been shown is the beginning of the E3 demo. I agree on the other things though. For whatever reason they dont appear to be on in some screens, if they can be turned back on, the game probably looks more like the old shots. If they are on and have just been toned down, oh well. I doubt I'll even notice while Im playing.

agentkay
02-20-06, 08:49 AM
oblivion supports true native 720p, as well as native 1080i.

We will see that by the end of next month. ;)

Zelda_fan
02-20-06, 08:53 AM
We will see that by the end of next month. ;)

I am just going on what developers have said.

agentkay
02-20-06, 09:05 AM
I am just going on what developers have said.

Thats all cool with me, but I just wanted to point out that these lower resolution for better framerate games have been played before and that its good to be aware of it. Sometimes its better to be a bit more careful with expectations so that the disappointment won´t be as bad if things do turn to worse.

Knot3D
02-20-06, 09:11 AM
If they are on and have just been toned down, oh well. I doubt I'll even notice while Im playing.

The accumulation of many subtle effects is what makes the biggest impact.

Take some 'minor' instruments away from a huge orchestra, and the ensemble will never sound the same anymore....