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Acid Rain
02-26-06, 06:03 PM
Check out this (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33846678) poll at Rage3d. I found it interesting. I know that's not a huge number of people to pool from, but remember these are people who, like us, are very into games. As in, people who should want to support their hobby, and understand that what they do is actually crippling the hobby for everyone.

A pretty sad-ass ratio of cleptos to good people. The highest number of votes lands on the highest number of games stolen. Sad. Bring on the Starforce, I suppose. :cry:

How do you stack up?

*Edit*Oh, and let's not turn this into a flamewar, though it may be tough not to.

CaptNKILL
02-26-06, 06:16 PM
So someone who downloads a $50 game, plays it for 5 minutes, realizes they dont like it, then immediately deletes it (without sharing it with others) isnt "good people" where as the guy who spends $50 on it, hates it and never plays it is? :o

Call me weird, but I bought 5 games I had previously downloaded last year and this year... if they dont release demos and the game sucks, Im not going to play through it if I download it. The difference is I didnt just blow $50 to find out I wasnt going to play it.

I dont play that many games. The ones I do play, I've payed for. I have downloaded my share of games though, I wont deny it. I've also got everyone I know to *buy* the games that I know for sure are good.

People can rent console games and blow through them with a $3 rental fee, or they can rent them and never play them again after that.

I know its illegal to download, and it doesnt make me feel good, but I dont think Id consider myself "not good people" (and deffinitely not a clepto) because of it. I know many many people are far worse than me though...

EDIT: BTW, I voted no. I do support my hobby and those who make it possible.

jAkUp
02-26-06, 06:22 PM
The problem is that most people don't do that.

And by downloading games, you are contributing to the spread of piracy. If you are download off bittorrent, you are seeding for others to download.

In my mind, there is no excuse for pirating a game. None. I own every game I play.

If you are not sure about a game, read reviews, and find opinions on message boards.

nV`andrew
02-26-06, 06:30 PM
The problem is that most people don't do that.

And by downloading games, you are contributing to the spread of piracy. If you are download off bittorrent, you are seeding for others to download.

In my mind, there is no excuse for pirating a game. None. I own every game I play.

If you are not sure about a game, read reviews, and find opinions on message boards.

QFT

Infinity666
02-26-06, 07:01 PM
Im a theif I play first, buy if its good. Ive downloaded tons of games and If I play the shiz outta them then I'll buy it. Kinda sucks buying a game and getting bored less than 15mins in.

Acid Rain
02-26-06, 07:03 PM
The problem is that most people don't do that.What he said.

Everyone I know who steals games this way (and that's a LOT of people) uses the "try before you buy" justification, and pretty much every last one never ends up "getting around to buying it". It is quite rampant, and I can definitely see the nescessity of harsher anti-piracy measures, no matter how much I detest them.

That's why I don't buy that line at all, or any of the clepto justification lines, for that matter. Sorry bud.

That's the only stuff I don't "buy" actually.;)

Captain, I don't want to beat on you at all, but I do have a question. Will you try Oblivion before you buy it? Honestly?

Oh, jAkUp, I now owe you mansechs. :D

Sazar
02-26-06, 07:07 PM
I would love for the games I buy to be able to be played without a CD/DVD in the drive.

I don't understand why this is too much to ask :(

Starforce or not :)

Infinity666
02-26-06, 07:08 PM
The problem is that most people don't do that.

And by downloading games, you are contributing to the spread of piracy. If you are download off bittorrent, you are seeding for others to download.

In my mind, there is no excuse for pirating a game. None. I own every game I play.

If you are not sure about a game, read reviews, and find opinions on message boards.

Reviews arent for every one. There others opinions while the person who recomended me the game make think that the game is awesome. I might not why would I want to pay $50+ on a game that will sit on a shelf and never get played?

I am all for supporting the game industry and developers. If game companys would release better demos then I might not need to download the full game to actually check it out.

For instance having you download the full game for free or for like a $1 and having a time limit like 3hrs of gameplay. I would fully support a system like this and would gladly shell out my buck or two to be able to play the actual game for a couple hours and get a feel for it.

de><ta
02-26-06, 07:10 PM
I dont see any joke option in the poll!

Acid Rain
02-26-06, 07:10 PM
I would love for the games I buy to be able to be played without a CD/DVD in the drive.Me too, very much so. Thieves are why this is required though.
If you are not sure about a game, read reviews, and find opinions on message boards.Of which there are so many that it's real easy to gauge a game's pulse. There's really no excuse for theft, even just temporarily, whatsoever.

jAkUp
02-26-06, 07:14 PM
What I don't understand, is how some people think that stealing software is ok, but other things are not?

We don't get to test drive hardware before buying, we don't get to test drive movies before watching, why are games any different? To me, stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter how, it doesn't matter for what reason.

And yes, you owe me mansechs ;)

Son Goku
02-26-06, 07:21 PM
Me too, very much so. Thieves are why this is required

Making one have the CD in the drive doesn't do anything to stop game downloads, else there wouldn't be anything to talk about here. What it does do for us honest gamers though, is make part of the game load off a CD or DVD drive, which is slower then the hard drive. In cases where this happens, one can still end up seeing some in game lag, even on an Athlon 64 or something of the sort...

I wish they'd dispense with this also. Not only the hassle of having to get the CD, but also where it can effect actual in game performance. A CD drive will never be as fast as one's hard drive...

Son Goku
02-26-06, 07:24 PM
We don't get to test drive hardware before buying,

Actually, I've known some people who have done just this. When they weren't sure if they wanted the lattest gen nVidia or ATI card, they bought both, (from different stores mind you), with the understanding they'd return one on the store's refund policy...

Tested both out, and then returned the one they didn't like as much... When some have announced doing this in forums, some other people were like "oh, that's just rotten" with others saying "why not"... It does happen, and is fully supported by many stores no questions asked, refund policy for the first 7 days, 1 month, whatever since purchase...

superklye
02-26-06, 07:29 PM
What I don't understand, is how some people think that stealing software is ok, but other things are not?

We don't get to test drive hardware before buying, we don't get to test drive movies before watching, why are games any different? To me, stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter how, it doesn't matter for what reason.

And yes, you owe me mansechs ;)
Well, games are pretty one-dimensional in terms of what they do: they get played. Depending on the hardware, there are PLENTY of uses for many of them, not just gaming. And regardless of what you're going to do with it, hardware reviews are based on FACT. I can or cannot do such and such. It is faster/slower than this, etc. Games are purely subjective.

You don't get to test drive moviews before watching? Well, what is renting one from blockbuster? Or what about going over to a friend's house and watching it there before you buy it? As someone else said: I'd be more than happy to pay a few bucks to "rent" the full game for a short time and play it, especially if there is no demo, or it's like FEAR and the demo is 20 minutes max.

Acid Rain
02-26-06, 07:30 PM
What I don't understand, is how some people think that stealing software is ok, but other things are not?

We don't get to test drive hardware before buying, we don't get to test drive movies before watching, why are games any different? To me, stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter how, it doesn't matter for what reason.

And yes, you owe me mansechs ;)Quick and straight to the point? Because no-one is watching and it's easy. Good thing cars aren't that easy to steal and keep, or auto theft would be even more of an issue than software theft.

Son Goku
02-26-06, 07:32 PM
Movies can also find their way onto cable, either networked or premium channel. Also, Comcast at least has added "On Demand", where some movies can be rented, and others (not always that old either), are a free "rental". One can view the tube with an eye to what one might or might not want to buy...

Oh, and movies that do find their way on TV, unlike games, can still be recorded with a VCR, per fair use. One of the outcomes of the trial that went to the Supreme Court in the 1980s when VCRs first came out...

Acid Rain
02-26-06, 07:34 PM
It does happen, and is fully supported by many stores no questions asked, refund policy for the first 7 days, 1 month, whatever since purchase...It is supported because it basically has to be. People buy the wrong parts from retail all the time, so the return policy is nescessary. Exploiting that is not helpfull to the industry either.

Damn, where'd I put that soapbox? :D

Nutty
02-26-06, 07:43 PM
What I don't understand, is how some people think that stealing software is ok, but other things are not?

We don't get to test drive hardware before buying, we don't get to test drive movies before watching, why are games any different? To me, stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter how, it doesn't matter for what reason.

And yes, you owe me mansechs ;)

The big difference is downloading, and copying, isn't stealing!

It seems you and alot of other people, especially people like the RIAA and MPA dont understand this. Downloading (which is essentially making a copy) doesn't take the original away from the owner, therefore it is not theft.

Every download does _NOT_ equate to 1 lost sale. It just doesn't work like that. Alot of people would simply do without instead.

I find most reviews lately absolutely suck, and even the ones that dont are just their personal opinion. I only trust my own judgement as far as games go these days.

Now I work in games, and tbh the amount of piracy that goes on is annoying. People bitch at Starforce soo much, but we often have no choice but to resort to these measures to insure we recover the costs that went into games.

Even tho I work in games, I really get pissed off when illegal stuff becomes far easier to view than legal stuff. DVD's in England now, have this sirens blowing, alarms going off "Dont Steal Movies" advert... I cant even skip it.. and its in my face telling me not to be a criminal.. on something I BOUGHT!!

Jeez, if I just got the downloaded version I could save myself minutes of watching that **** and get on with the movie!

What I want to see in the future is being able to do what I want with media I buy. I dont want restrictions, I dont want crappy 128kbit audio, I dont want difficulties, because if people get these restrictions, they will just resort to better quality, easier to use illegal media.

Bit of a rant there but...

Son Goku
02-26-06, 07:44 PM
It is supported because it basically has to be. People buy the wrong parts from retail all the time, so the return policy is nescessary. Exploiting that is not helpfull to the industry either.

Damn, where'd I put that soapbox? :D

It's not helpful true... But it's not technically illegal either, which is where these people could argue. BTW, I never did that one myself, albeit I did return a Voodoo 5 5500 and got a GTS, after taking a look at the thing in my comp, I couldn't really get the thing to play all that well under win2k... I got the GTS after the fact though...

EB used to let one return an open game within 7 days, and they used to also sell used games. I say used to, cause they don't seem to provide used PC games any longer (only with console games). That did give people a chance to purchase, try it out, etc... I don't think any other software store outside of EB and Gamestop, let one do that though. Alternatively however, some of their prices were also higher then some places like Best Buy that didn't provide this option, but was arguably worth it...

Edit: As to those "unskippable" adverts and all... There's a reason I put the DVD into the player before I change the TV to receive signal from an input mode. It can play, where the TV isn't tuned in... The DVD menu can wait...

Acid Rain
02-26-06, 07:47 PM
Nutty, you can blame all of that frustration directly on thieves. That's where ALL the blame is and that's where a good deal of my anti-piracy stance comes from.

jAkUp
02-26-06, 07:50 PM
Taking something that normally costs money, for nothing, is stealing.

Stealing- To take without right or permission.

Why is WoW so successful? I think, one of the reasons is because you can't really pirate it.

Nutty
02-26-06, 07:53 PM
Nutty, you can blame all of that frustration directly on thieves. That's where ALL the blame is and that's where a good deal of my anti-piracy stance comes from.

Huh ? I dont blame thieves. I blame people like music companies and publishers for forcing people into using illegal media. This is kind of a different point to downloading games but..

A while back I bought a CD. Could've downloaded it, I thought no, support the artist. CD arrived popped it into my pc. Wouldn't play.. at all.. The copy protection system just didn't allow cd-rom drives to play it..

Send it back, downloaded it instead. Their fault not mine.

Nutty
02-26-06, 07:55 PM
Taking something that normally costs money, for nothing, is stealing.

Stealing- To take without right or permission.

Why is WoW so successful? I think, one of the reasons is because you can't really pirate it.

The point you fail to realise, is theft is to take away. Copying does not take away, it duplicates.

You also dont understand that every download isn't a lost sale. To say it is, is ignorant. Thats the kind of bull**** the RIAA make up to make their cause against sharing seem more worthwhile.

saturnotaku
02-26-06, 07:57 PM
I'm all for protection schemes that are as minimally invasive as possible. I would be interested to see a study done that breaks down the level of piracy based on its protection. Are StarForce games pirated more than those using SecuROM or Safedisc? My beef with StarForce is that it installs additional software on your system without your consent or any sort of notification. The new versions of SecuROM are similar, but not as invasive on one's system. It's probably getting to the point where these schemes are actually hurting sales and increasing the chances that a title will get pirated.

I wish more games would go to the Direct2Drive or Steam distribution method. I like Steam for the reason that the games are always available to me, like when I format Windows, I can reinstall Steam and have it download all of my licensed content with no hassles. I would gladly purchase more games if I knew they could be had this way.

myshkinbob
02-26-06, 07:59 PM
Hi, a while since i've posted here.

This poll is rather polarised, if you'll excuse the pun. :)

Because some people download games they automatically don't care about it's impact on the whole industry?

It's easy to say theft is theft, and there is no grey area, but in the real world there is one. Morally it's always wrong to steal, but people generally steal things for a reason, except if they're truly kleptomaniacs. Some people steal out of sheer greed and for resale, others because they can't afford to buy, and some because they just can steal it so why pay.

But theft with media, it is not the same as stealing a physical object. When you take an object, it's gone, you have it and someone has lost out. Copying media is different, the original remains, and nobody has been deprived of enjoyment by the theft.

The producer has still been deprived of the sale, that's a common line about it. You hear it a lot from the MPAA and RIAA. That's a very idealistic statement though. It relies on the fact the stealing party would certainly have bought the media if they couldn't steal it. That's clearly impossible, because a lot of pirates are kids, poor students, etc etc. And the hardcore pirates who leech 24/7 simply couldn't afford to buy everything they steal even if they had 3 jobs.

I'd say, and it's purely opinion, about one third of piracy at most, is actually a lost sale. And that's being generous. The statistics you hear about losses through piracy for each industry are highly overblown, they're made to state the industries' case. I'd be very interested to see some unbiased third party statistics on the real monetary impact of media piracy.

There's also a flip side to piracy, it's not an entirely negative thing. The more people playing a game, the more people talk about it, and so the more people get to know about it. Although they stole the game, the pirates contribute to the buzz surrounding a game, and so contribute to the legitimate sales by some factor. Perhaps a miniscule factor, but nonetheless. They're also no less inclined to contribute to the game's community. For all you know, some of the best tips, mods, models and extra content you've got for one of your games could have come from a pirate. My point is they are part of the gaming community and if you somehow expelled them the loss of their positive input would be felt to some degree.

Personally, i'm inclined to agree captNKILL's second post of this thread, 'pirating' a game does not automatically make you an immoral person. My own rule for whether it's wrong for someone to pirate instead of buy a game is simple:

If you like the game and can afford to buy it and you still steal it, then you are doing wrong by the people who created it. And if you're profiting by it also, then you really are damaging the industry.

For every other kind of pirate, i say go for it, nobody is actually losing anything by your actions. So far as the contributary effect for bittorrent/ed2k helping the 'bad' pirates, that's simply untrue, you only help them get it in 2 hours instead of 4 hours. They would still get the game without your help with the uploading, just from each other.

I didn't vote in the poll because i feel neither option fits my actions. I myself download some games i would never buy, and buy the games i know i want. I don't feel bad about stealing it because i haven't deprived the developer of a sale that was never going to happen anyway, and i don't feel bad about contributing to the 'bad' pirates download speed because i know they would still do it between themselves anyway too. If it turns out i really enjoy a game i've downloaded then i'll do my best to find the money to buy it, in which case my awful terrible piracy has actually changed a sale that wasn't ever going to happen otherwise into money for the developer.

I exepct to get flamed, and be told i'm justifying the unjustifiable, which i'm not trying to do. I'd just like to see how anyone can prove that piracy is so black and white. Like most things, it just isn't that simple, and there are a lot of factors at play before you can draw a moral line on the ground or produce an accurate picture of the damage it does to something we all love, good games.