PDA

View Full Version : No HDR with AA activated on Oblivion ?


Pages : [1] 2

billos
02-28-06, 07:58 AM
Interesting : there is at the moment a technical discussion on the official elder scrolls forum about the gfx options in Oblivion. It is said that even the high-end Nvidia cards (7800gt/gtx) will not be able to run the HDR option with AA activated in the same time (where some ATI card will be able to do it, maybe the x1800xt or x1900xt ).

It seems that iit is linked to a hardware issue (same hardware part used for the 2 functionnalities) for the Nvidia cards.

Is anyone aware of that ? (i would be very sad if i can't run Oblivion at max settings with HDR & AA with my 7800gtx's :( ). Please, is there here an expert which could prove it's wrong ?

rewt
02-28-06, 08:17 AM
No AA + HDR in FarCry... No AA + HDR in Half-Life 2...

I doubt you will see AA + HDR in Oblivion either.

OWA
02-28-06, 08:40 AM
You can use AA + HDR in Half-Life 2.

It depends on the method they use. If they use the method that Far Cry uses, then you won't be able to use HDR+AA on nvidia cards. If they use the method that Half-Life 2 uses, then you will.

rflair
02-28-06, 08:47 AM
You can use AA + HDR in Half-Life 2.

It depends on the method they use. If they use the method that Far Cry uses, then you won't be able to use HDR+AA on nvidia cards. If they use the method that Half-Life 2 uses, then you will.


But isn't the Halflife2 method really not true HDR? I could be wrong but didn't Valve implement a method of HDR which would run on earlier ATI cards (x850 and such) but it truely isn't HDR?

OWA
02-28-06, 09:00 AM
It's "true" HDR and yes, it should be able to run on most cards. They use an integer format. For more info see this article:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2545

Medion
02-28-06, 11:50 AM
There are numerous ways to implement a form of HFR. "True" HDR today is FP16 and FP32 HDR, which cna both be done no the GF6 and 7 series cards. The Radeon X1k series can also do both. Only the Radeon cards can apply HDR (FP16 only).

With integer HDR, and shaders emulating HDR, AA can often be applied. HL2 uses shaders to emulate HDR (not integer). HL2HDR can be run on X800 and 9x00 cards, which do not support integer HDR.

OWA
02-28-06, 12:01 PM
Here's a popular utility that demonstrates HDR + AA on a wide variety of cards. Most people use this to check their load temps.

http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/index.html

jolle
02-28-06, 12:56 PM
Yeah RTHDRIBL does REAL FP16 HDR, with MSAA.
But it doesnt render to a FP16 framebuffer which was introduced for realtime use with NV4x and is now supported on the new Radeons aswell (plus MSAA support), instead it renders to a FP16 format Texture, which allows it to work on any DX9 card that support that texture format in drivers (pretty much all DX9 cards).

Tho as I have understood it, that method doesnt work with Alphablended textures UNLESS your hardware supports FP blending, which I have been led to belive is usually only supported on the later hardware with FP16 framebuffer support...
Could be wrong tho..

Ady
02-28-06, 05:11 PM
Is anyone aware of that ?


Yes, sorry to tell you that nvidia cards are just not capable of it. nvidia thought it was too hard to accomplish so they left it out. It's only possible with x1k series cards from ATi.

As the other guys have said, HL2 uses a different, less complicated method of HDR that allows nvidia to run it with AA. You won't see that on any other new games that aren't from Valve though.

Nutty
02-28-06, 05:23 PM
Yes, sorry to tell you that nvidia cards are just not capable of it. nvidia thought it was too hard to accomplish so they left it out. It's only possible with x1k series cards from ATi.

As the other guys have said, HL2 uses a different, less complicated method of HDR that allows nvidia to run it with AA. You won't see that on any other new games that aren't from Valve though.

It is possible. It's just nVidia dont give the option of forcing it on when using floating point render targets.

You can do it manually, but this requires the application coders to do it themselves.

MUYA
02-28-06, 09:07 PM
GTX launch demo uses HDR+AA. It has to be coded in as pointed out by Tertsi

SH64
02-28-06, 11:59 PM
It'll be interesting to see the performance hit with both enabled first ...

AstroCat
03-02-06, 02:26 PM
From the official site...

On High-Dynamic Range (HDR) and Anti-Aliasing (AA)
HDR will apparently work with all SM2.0 and later cards; (See the quote here, on a SM 2.0 implementation of HDR) but it also appears that a SM 2.0 card may even be REQUIRED to play the game. (see the bottom of this post) Also, as noted in the Beyond3D Interview the game uses a shadow-mapping method instead of stencil shadows like Doom3 and F.E.A.R.; this performs far better, allows for easy, true soft shadowing, and if you have a SM 2.0 extended or SM 3.0 card, can be handled very, very fast.

And yes, FP16 HDR, as used in Oblivion can be done with a SM 2.0 card. This is what's used in RTHDRIBL, one of the best HDR demos to date. And yes, it can be done with multi-sample anti-aliasing. No worries here.

jolle
03-02-06, 04:03 PM
From the official site...
Does that mean its a Official statement from someone?
doesnt sound very accurate.. where is the link?

AstroCat
03-03-06, 07:29 AM
I got that info from here:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=250534

Jackrabbit710
03-07-06, 12:58 PM
It best had work! Im pretty sure it will though, and if not ill be pretty mad!

And hi everyone, first post. Been a guest on nvnews for to long, time to register!

OWA
03-07-06, 01:01 PM
Welcome. :)

The post didn't sound all that official but I hope it's true also.

Jackrabbit710
03-07-06, 01:16 PM
"Oblivion will do both AA and HDR because it uses a special simulated HDR technique which is compatible with AA on all DX9 video cards, including Nvidias"

As quoted by grahf1942 on the elderscrolls forum

We will just have to wait toll we get it then expect the massive flood of people complaining (like me) when you cant do it!

Jackrabbit710
03-07-06, 05:33 PM
I asked this question too recently, whether HDR and AA would be allowed with an Nvidia card, heres what I got.

The direct comment you heard was pure falsehood. What AA you can use with HDR is actually determined by the program that's using it. Older, less-advanced games using HDR, from Far Cry to Splinter Cell 3 to Serious Sam 2 use a version of HDR called OpenEXR; the game developers didn't actually make it, they licensed it from Industrial Light & Magic, which as you're probably aware, makes CG and other effects for use in movies. (their first break, of course, being Star Wars)

OpenEXR is a rather easy to implement version, but it was designed for CG movies, not video games. As a result, it is incredibly rutheless when it comes to power drain, and it's incompatible with MSAA, (multi-sample-anti-aliasing) the AA method used in modern games. CG Movies use SSAA (super-sample-anti-aliasing) which more closely mimics real life, but hjas hardly any improvement for its cost; using x4 SSAA cuts your framerate by 75%, and x16 SSAA cuts it by 93.5%, and it increases from there. Since CG movies aren't done in real-time, this isn't a problem. (on average, each single FRAME from a movie takes a massive "render farm" of thousands of computers about 1-2 hours to draw)

However, since games have to be done in real-time; preferably, each frame has to be drawn using much less hardware, and be done in hopefuly, less than 33 milliseconds. (enough to yield 30fps) That's why MSAA is used instead of SSAA.

Normally, NO card can run MSAA and OpenEXR at the same time, though ATi made an exception with their X1k series; it was a work-around they implemented in their cards. With other cards, such as GeForce 6 and 7-series cards, you can only use SSAA, which is actually available at one setting: x4. This will cause a serious hit to your framerate, but it will be AA.

Fortunately, Oblivion isn't using OpenEXR. Rather, since OpenEXR wasn't first availible to developers until very early 2005, (and games like Splinter Cell 3 added it in at the last minute) and BethSoft had decided to use HDR since they started in 2002, they made their own HDR program, that's COMPLETELY different.

This is good; it's everything that OpenEXR isn't; whilt it's still something that hurts performance, it's a lighter hit than any other form of HDR known. Also, it works with ALL types of AA flawlessly. Lastly, it can be used on cards that don't support SM 3.0, though the older, SM 2.0 version, (for Radeon 9, X, and GeForce FX 5 cards) does cause a bigger performance hit.

There's only one flaw that's known of, though; when using it, some forms of blending become prohibitively expensive to use. As a result, it seems that using HDR will disable these blending acts, such as alpha-blending. In Morrowind, this was used to make the edges of trees look smooth even if you weren't using AA. Losing this is really no big deal, since it doesn't work correctly in all programs aside from Morrowind. This is also what "transparency AA" is used to correct. Even if you can't correct it, it's still hardly noticable, particularly at distance, so it's nothing to worry about.
(Quote from Nottheking)

FraGTastiK
03-07-06, 06:09 PM
"Oblivion will do both AA and HDR because it uses a special simulated HDR technique which is compatible with AA on all DX9 video cards, including Nvidias"

As quoted by grahf1942 on the elderscrolls forum

Good news.

"We will just have to wait toll we get it then expect the massive flood of people complaining (like me) when you cant do it!

I hope not.

Mad_iRiShMaN
02-27-07, 08:24 PM
This is not true I have an evga 8800 gts am running Oblivion at my lcd's max resolution of 1280x1024 every setting maxed out including the view distances with hdr and AA 4x its a very easy fix go to nvidia control panel change the AA setting from let application decide to AA 4x The Oblivian game settings still wont let you turn on AA but your card wont let the game turn off your AA have tested this and it works. Easy fix dont know what all the fuss is about. If you can find a benchmark site for x1950xt vs evga8800gts testing oblivian you will find out that the 8800 outperforms the 1950 by about 25% without overclocking(and by the way my 8800gts overclocks a whopping 43% clock speed of well over 4 gigs) sorry guys nvidia still rules. my setup :) Msi k9n diamond am2 nforce590 chipset/athlon 4600x2/ 250 gig w.d. sata2 hard drive with 16 meg cache/ 2 gigs ddr2 800/evga8800gts 640 meg version/ 550 watt power supply

fivefeet8
02-27-07, 10:39 PM
The thread is from March of 2006. :headexplode:

t3hl33td4rg0n
03-01-07, 04:48 AM
The thread is from March of 2006.

Weve all brought back dead threads once in our lives!:tiki:

Blacklash
03-03-07, 08:23 PM
This pic is always good to slap on a thread necro :p

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4972/threadnecrosn0.jpg

Dragunov
03-07-07, 12:27 PM
Well bought Oblivion today, patched with 1.1, but unfortanutaly no HDR+AA ingame, but when u select Bloom, u cannot select HDR.

What's the difference between this? :)

thx