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AstroCat
03-10-06, 04:52 PM
Ok, I just got a 7900gtx and I'm having a bit of buyers remorse. I know that the 1900 from ati is supposed to have better IQ and much less shimmering.

If you turn off all the AF optimizations for the 7900, like I always have with my 7800gtx, will the 7900gtx come close to or equal to the 1900 IQ, and shimmering?

I swear the 1900 would have been my first ati card, if it wasn't for the darned heat/noise problems I keep hearing about.

Any input would be appreciated! Thanks.

Dazz
03-10-06, 05:10 PM
No has the X1000 cards have HQ AF which allows them to produce higher quility textures no matter what angle to look at, i just got my 7800GTX have disable all optimizations i am still testing with regards to shimmering but i have noticed it with them on.

AstroCat
03-10-06, 05:51 PM
I wish the 1900xtx wasn't so darned loud! Otherwise I think I would have just bought my first ATI card... /sigh

Cptobvious
03-10-06, 08:09 PM
Well the X1900XTX is clearly the choice right now, if you want the best IQ... If you want the best performance X1900 is still the choice.

killahsin
03-10-06, 08:14 PM
i think thats misleading if you turn the optimizations off the iq is ALMOST the same. You would be hard pressed to point out the differences. So much so that one would ahev to wonder why you are that hard pressed to point out the differences.

Dazz
03-10-06, 08:49 PM
I wish the 1900xtx wasn't so darned loud! Otherwise I think I would have just bought my first ATI card... /sigh
That was what put me off and got a GTX256 92mm fan version. I don't like changing the HSF in case down the road something happens to the card and needs to be RMAed. Reviews have said that there is quite a diffrence from angled AF (Pre ATi R5x0 and all NV cards) and rotating AF (ATi all R5x0)

KickAssCop
03-11-06, 12:46 AM
In games with huge draw distances, the X1900 series shines and there is no denying that. AF is better on the X1900.

AstroCat
03-11-06, 01:18 AM
Well, I've gotten the opportunity to test out a x1900xtx and so far here's what I think:

1. It's louder than my 7800gtx256OC for sure, but not as loud as my old 6800ultra.

2. The IQ/Lack of shimmering is for sure noticeable better on the x1900xtx over the 7800 (Tried Wow, HL2, BF2 and COD2)

3. The fan does oscillate as the load increases but so far it's not been too bad and not over the sound of my game playing. My room is around 72F temp and my case has good airflow with 120mm fans and is generally very quiet, the 1900 is by far the loudest thing in the case. I don't know how bad it can get under hotter conditions. More testing on this for sure is needed.

4. The worst part for me is the "whine" of the fan especially in idle mode, since my system is generally so quiet it really sticks out. The airflow noise is ok on my setup.

Not sure yet if I'm going to keep the x1900xtx, I've been with nvidia for years, and this would be my first ATI card ever. I'm a little nervous about the drivers, bugs, etc... so I'm not sure yet. The other issue is the "whine" of the fan, I'm just so used to a quiet gentle "woosh" and that's it. Actually sometimes it's so quiet you can easily forget it's on. The wonders of 120mm fans :)

killahsin
03-11-06, 04:09 AM
I had a 9700 pro for almost as long as i have had a 6800 gt now. Go with whatever plays the games comfortably for you. The grass is always greener elsewhere. My advice to you is if you can play the games without constant crashing lol, keep the card and enjoy the experiance.

radekhulan
03-11-06, 05:06 AM
In games with huge draw distances, the X1900 series shines and there is no denying that. AF is better on the X1900.

True just partially. If you use FSAA, also AF is "magically improved" in 7800 HW. Does not make much sense, but it is true. Also ATI does not have TPAA and Gamma AA.

Here are some examples, where ATI X1800/1900 has way inferior IQ to NVIDIA:
http://radekhulan.cz/item/ati-x1800-x1900-vykazuje-spatnou-kvalitu-obrazu

ATI drivers are also beta-quality. There have been many games that crash when started, or after playing few minutes, with Catalyst 6.1.

BTW, some time ago I have made some screenshots and game saves from HL2 and F.E.A.R. at 1280x1024 @ 60FPS min. You can try those with ATI, and post them here, so that we can compare it :-)

HL2 saves: http://rapidshare.de/files/8094660/HL2_saves.rar
HL2 screenshots: http://rapidshare.de/files/8098681/HL2_screenshot.rar
F.E.A.R. saves: http://rapidshare.de/files/8094102/FEAR_saves.rar
F.E.A.R. screenshots: http://rapidshare.de/files/8094344/FEAR_screenshot.rar

I would emphasize 60 FPS min, when taking screenshots..

ATI_Dude
03-11-06, 09:26 AM
True just partially. If you use FSAA, also AF is "magically improved" in 7800 HW. Does not make much sense, but it is true.

You're probably referring to super sample AA which improve AF quality when used in conjunction with AF. You just "forgot" to mention the performance hit :rolleyes:

Bottom line:
There's no way you can achieve the same quality of AF on GeForce 6/7 cards compared the the Radeon X1xxx cards since it's impossible to circumvent the angle dependency.

Also ATI does not have TPAA and Gamma AA.

Sadly it seems like you don't know what you're talking about.

ATI cards support transparency AA in Direct3D, it's termed "adaptive antialiasing" (AAA). It works in the exact same way as TPAA, i.e. AAA applies MSAA or SSAA to transparent textures.

Gamma corrected AA are supported by all Radeon chipsets since the Radeon 9700 so ATI was actually the first company to support this feature. ATI also supported rotated grid MSAA years before nVidia.

ATI drivers are also beta-quality. There have been many games that crash when started, or after playing few minutes, with Catalyst 6.1.

You could say the same about nVidia drivers. I've owned cards from both companies and each have their fair share of game issues. I concur that the new X1xxx cards have some issues with certain applications (3DMark06 and Quake 4 to name a few), but you have to remember it's a completely new architecture and it'll take some time before the drivers mature.

radekhulan
03-11-06, 09:37 AM
ATI cards support transparency AA in Direct3D, it's termed "adaptive antialiasing" (AAA). It works in the exact same way as TPAA, i.e. AAA applies MSAA or SSAA to transparent textures.

Sadly, ATI's AAA is no match in image quality to NVIDIA's TPAA SS.

hemmy
03-11-06, 09:38 AM
It can match the image quality if you dont use the angle independant AF and HDR+AA

hemmy
03-11-06, 09:39 AM
Sadly, ATI's AAA is no match in image quality to NVIDIA's TPAA SS.

Yes it is...in quality mode it is ALMOST as good as supersampling, and its new performance mode is better the multisampling

NVIDIAs AA i prefer, it is more bold, and doesn't fade in the distance though

Dazz
03-11-06, 12:24 PM
As i have only had an ATi X800 it's FSAA was excellent but when you came across fencing and grass the quility was poor, i have turned on STAA for the 7800 and OMFG it was so good i will never turn it off now.

AstroCat
03-12-06, 12:45 AM
I've been testing a x1900xtx out and I must say overall the IQ/lack of shimmering/texture crawling is very noticeable on the ATI card.
It's without a doubt better than the 7x00 series. I've been comparing against a 7800 and 6800ultra.

The more I use the card the more I'm starting to like it. Every time I think I have found an odd visual glitch I check the Nvidia box to compare and sure enough every time it's in the game and not the x1900xtx card.

It really helps to be able to A/B them next to each other. I promise the x1900xtx looks better.

Now whether that IQ is worth the extra noise is up to each person. I am not bothered by the noise of the fan during game play. It's only during idle do I really notice it being louder than the 7800, although the 6800 ultra is pretty loud itself.

One other thing I've been a little worried about is the OpenGL performance of the ATI card. There are some games coming that I know will use OGL and I really don't want to be bummed when trying to play them because of the ATI lackluster OGL support.

killahsin
03-12-06, 01:43 AM
While shimmering is a funny issue that has more to do with developers and less to do with hardware it is annoying to those rich folk with $1200-$2500 widescreen monitors. And ATI's AF implementation does get rid of it better then nvidias. The sad thing is that as shading on materials becomes more and more prevelant you will see more and more shimmering on both cards.

Ninja Prime
03-12-06, 02:06 AM
I wish the 1900xtx wasn't so darned loud! Otherwise I think I would have just bought my first ATI card... /sigh

What the hell are you guys talking about anyway? I can't even hear it in 2d mode and in 3d mode its still barely noticeable... are people putting them in an oven or somethign so it runs at full speed all the time or what? I swear mine has never even approached the sound of my old 6800GT, and I keep it at max overdrive clock all the time.

AstroCat
03-12-06, 09:23 AM
Ok, I have been testing it a lot more over this weekend as I said above. I think it's not really an issue at this point during gameplay. I can't hear it above the sound of the game even when it ramps up.

I also really only noticed the fan going at 2 different speeds, 1 during idle and some gameplay and a faster 2nd one during the prolonged gameplay. Neither is really an issue for me above the speakers I have.

During idle it is louder than my 7800gtx for sure. But, it's more the pitch of the fan's "whine" than the airflow that bothers me.

It's not as bad as some cards in my past, I feel the 6800ultra has a louder fan noise actually, I have it still set up in 1 system.

Overall the card is really growing on me, but if I do keep I think I will still investigate a 3rd party cooler because of the idle noise.

OWA
03-12-06, 10:35 AM
What the hell are you guys talking about anyway? I can't even hear it in 2d mode and in 3d mode its still barely noticeable... are people putting them in an oven or somethign so it runs at full speed all the time or what? I swear mine has never even approached the sound of my old 6800GT, and I keep it at max overdrive clock all the time.
The whine is very piercing. I can hear it even when I playing games with headphones on and that's also why I don't overclock it anymore.

AstroCat
03-12-06, 10:46 AM
@OWA since you have both full on... which do you prefer... any advice? :)

Buenamos
03-12-06, 11:55 AM
Just for the extra input, I'd have to say that when I switched from my x800xt pe to my 7800gtx's I could definitely tell IQ loss. The shimmering kinda sux along with the AF loss. But what I really miss is 6x AA. Even with 4x MSAA and gamma correction, I still feel like it doesn't look as good as ATI's 6x AA. I dunno, maybe it's just me...I kinda miss you ATI boohoo.:p

OWA
03-12-06, 12:02 PM
@OWA since you have both full on... which do you prefer... any advice? :)
No. :p Since you have both, you should just play around with them and pick whatever one you're the most happy with. :)

Here is a general summary that I just posted in another thread for a guy that was asking for opinions though. You can see if you agree or not.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=834812&postcount=3

tieros
03-12-06, 12:40 PM
The fan noise issue may be something that only affects certain people.

A friend of mine brought his X1900XTX to work, and the sound bothered me the second I walked into his office. When he ran the demos on it and the fan switched to high speed, the sound was so annoying I had to take a step back from his computer. He said he noticed it, but it didn't bother him at all.

It's more of a piercing or penetrating noise than a loud noise, at least to me. It may just be that some people are more sensitive to that frequency range than others.

If the noise doesn't bother you, then you have a MUCH harder decision to make than I did :D

AstroCat
03-13-06, 12:37 PM
I think because of the texture crawling/shimmering IQ I am leaning towards the 1900 at the moment. I will want to investigate an aftermarket cooler for the 1900 to tame the idle noise a bit.
It doesn't bother me at all in game, but in idle it's a tad annoying.