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msxyz
03-27-06, 01:33 AM
Everything in this game, from enemies to loot to most of merchants merchandise scales to the level of the player. There are countless threads on the subjects even on the official forums. I quote them, as they nail what I think of the game:

The basic point of this post is that exploration is not rewarded. Leveling simply makes the enemies more powerful. Items dropped are never significantly better than you'd expect, or (once you reach a certain point in the game) better than the stuff you already have. You can explore for the sake of exploration, but that's it. (...) The two best rpgs of all time -- BGII and Wizardry VIII -- both had WOW! moments where you ran into some uber powerful enemy, who you KNEW was guarding some ridiculously powerful weapon. (Firkraag and Carsomyr in BGII, Sorceress Queen and Fang in W8) When you finally beat that enemy, and got that item, the sense of accomplishment was IMMENSE.

Unfortunately, due to the loot drop (and enemy level scaling) system, there's no sense of awe or accomplishment in Oblivion. You can wander around if you just like the sights, or if you like exploring for it's own sake. (...)


I did what many others did, actually put major skills as major skills and now at level 16 with 21 hours into the game i am bouncing off average dungeon creatures like zombies and getting mauled by mountain lions and bears. I am using the grand champion armor from the arena that I earned with ALOT of kiting (thank you speed attribute) with a dwarven bow with dwarven arrows as my main weapon and an elven longsword with an elven shield as secondary. It takes me exactly 18 shots to kill a bear and it can kill me in 5 hits (though 4th hit leaves me with next to nothing). Exactly what kind of equipment am I supposed to have? This is the best ive run across im at a loss as to what to do.

(...) So seriously, what am I to do? My options seem to be that I either A. use the difficulty slider and feel like everything Ive done hasnt been really earned or B. start over and power build myself to leetness by controlling how often I level and try to get 3x +5 modifiers when I lvl.


And last, this post expresses my feeling exactly

To me, it seems like this system is limmiting the choices avaible to the player.. Leveled loot, placeholder items in stores, level reqs on items.. And why is this system in place? To stop players from becoming walking gods to early? Well, it does that, and stops it from happening at all.

Like in MW, if i wanted to, i could go to the extent to raid some deadra shrines, although it would be difficult on a low level, haul the loot back and sell it... Then use my hard earned monney to aquire the best equipment, say full daedric complete with enchantments. This was my choice, to work hard to get something.

If that made me to powerfull, well.. it was due to my own actions, my own responsibility. Why did they have to take that posibility away due to imbalance, when it was my own choice to do so? Thats what leveled loot does. I can't do that, cause it would make me to powerfull.. Well, what is the point in doing so, if there's almost nothing to gain on it?

I want to be able to choose for myself if i want to go on a power trip or not. I do not want a game, that choose how difficult the next mace armed goblin is going to be according to my level. i want the enemies that i will crush without effort, i want enemies that will make me sweat just thinking about them. OBs leveling system hinder this.

I also want the feeling of exploration.. to go into the unkown looking for something special and unkown... if all is the same, this feeling is lost...

Oblivion progress linearity reminds me more of an FPS than an RPG. Weapons are scaled, enemies are scaled and every encounter (even the mnost stupid) becomes more difficult. What's the point of exploring, when all I will find is some random loot? Where is the sence of achievement if an hell-spawn daedra is weaker than some dumb wildlife and ass raping a proven champion ? Where's that mouth watering feeling when you know there's some legendary item waiting for you but you're not enough skilled to grab it?

Some people are already warking on MODs to de-level the NPCs and the loot but it's an uphill battle and probably it won't work well because the whole game and quests have been engineered that way.

Sorry for the long rant.

|MaguS|
03-27-06, 01:45 AM
I know how you feel, I was exploring and found a dungeon, I had to leave the dungeon because I felt like I was too low (more then a single goblin would put me on my heels) so I said, heck why not go to the first city and do some early quests... well the first quest was to fight some goblins and suprisingly the goblins in this first part were as difficult as the ones in the far off dungeon I explored (minus the boss that killed me in a single shot).

Capt. Picard
03-27-06, 02:08 AM
If this sentiment is general then I hope they bring out a fairly large patch or a expansion to change this.

Mr. Hunt
03-27-06, 02:45 AM
If this sentiment is general then I hope they bring out a fairly large patch or a expansion to change this.

Already a pretty big thread on people wanting a mod to stop this... can't remember if a beta was released yet or not... I forget :\.

Superfly
03-27-06, 02:56 AM
just starting to notice this now - real shame.

im hoping it gets changed.

Acid Rain
03-27-06, 03:09 AM
For me, they've accomplished what they set out to do. Always give the player a reasonable challenge. What high level play wants to enter a random dungeon full of one hit kill opponents to find a steel claymore at the end as athe reward? Not me. Beth has fixed this problem very nicely.

It's been balanced perfectly for my tastes, and you can find serious loot. I just found a nearly 8,000 septim staff (surrounded by what looked to be the remains of a huge goblin feud gone terribly wrong, very cool! Dead goblins that I had nothing to do with, everywhere.), yet my best weapon when I found it was a trusty but cheap silver short sword. Now that was a rewarding goblin cave! It was a fantastically harrowing experience, but I managed to forge my way in with skill in timing, mobility, blocking and stealth. I am finding the combat gameplay and leveling to be beautifully balanced. Very engaging for me.

msxyz
03-27-06, 04:15 AM
If this sentiment is general then I hope they bring out a fairly large patch or a expansion to change this.They won't change something that big. Also, some folks (mainly on the Xbox) are happy with this because they don't have the slightest idea of what an RPG is, all they do is enter every battle as they're playing a FPS. As someone over the official forums pointed out, Oblivion is a sightseeing simulation with some FPS and RPG elements turned in.

The only issue I can see fixed is the dumb skill multiplier thing that penalizes major skills, while it's possible to become master in minor skill without altering the level. Try making a nord, born under the warrior and with combat specialization but all the major skills assigned to magic. You'll end up with a tank machine which will reach mastery in armor, blades, blunts but that will stay at lvl 1. It will still be possible to complete the main quest, the arena and several others in a breeze.

Morrowind was unbalanced because people could reach high levels too easily, this is equally unbalanced, worse broken because it penalize people for doing the RIGHT things they're supposed to do in an RPG. It's absurd, but people who created a bad character -skill wise- are actually encountering less difficulties than those who planned their character carefully.

lowdog
03-27-06, 04:35 AM
It's both good and bad. Nothing is worse than being so powerfull that the game becomes unchallenging but on the other hand you want the feeling of accomplishment that comes with advancement in specific attributes. You also want the feeling of striving to become stronger so that you can take on some wicked powerful creature and gain it's awsome magical weapon.

I'm not sure how this game balances out yet. If you can't become a beast of a mage or there are no realy SPECIAL weapons around to make you feel special then what's happening??.

Don't realy know what I'm talking about....I'm a little confused by it all. :o

Actually, I think the below quote from the first post sums it up well!!!!

"I also want the feeling of exploration.. to go into the unkown looking for something special and unkown... if all is the same, this feeling is lost.."

Brimstone7
03-27-06, 05:50 AM
I'm only 16 hours in (maybe 5 quests into the main storyline) and the difficulty scaling thing hasn't really affected me yet. Enemies aren't easy but I can still take on 2-3 at a time if I have to. I think the ideal solution would be having the enemies grow stronger with you, but giving them various offsets depending on the type of dungeon they are in. For example, monsters in caves near towns are your level minus 3 or 4 levels; monsters in the most hidden of caves are your level plus 3 or 4. This way there are still "newbie" dungeons and "elite" dungeons but they will provide some consistency.

I do agree that they skill system is majorly broken. In my opinion, the whole multiplier thing has to go. It is counter-intuitive because you actually want to focus on your minor skills instead of your major ones; you are punished for working on your major skills. I think this can be fixed by weighing multipliers differently with respect to major and minor skills: majors skills provide a +1 multiplier after every skill increase, minor skills after every 2 or 3. I also think magika should increase every level regardless of the number of points you put into intelligence.

Still a great game, but there's no denying that auto-scaling does almost defeat the purpose of leveling up to begin with.

nrs421
03-27-06, 06:12 AM
i'm going to have to agree with this.....i spent most of my time walking around crawling through dungeons thinking that once i'd gotten to a high enough level the main quests would be a breeze....i'm so pissed off that, that isnt the case

JamesDax
03-27-06, 06:40 AM
Well, i'm kinda split on this issue. On the one hand you want to feel godly at some level. Be able to kill the avgerage human and natural creature in a breeze. On the other hand, you still wanna have that since of awe when you face up to some creatures and bearly make it alive. Or sometimes wanna get frustrated when some creature/s brings you back to earth by showing you that you're not all that. Also just how bad you are should depend on your class as well. If you a mage wearing only a cloth robe and you get attacked by a bear before you can get off that spell that will put him down then you are just dead. In that same example if you are a Knight and wearing plate armor then you have a shot at putting that bear down. Or if you are a uber thief then you should be able to sneak your way though a dugeon full of creatures but if you get swarmed your dead meat. Where as a Warrior of the same level might just be able to cut his way through.

Anyway, that just my thoughts on the leveling. But I agree that there should be those special dungeons/places that you go to thinking your gods gift only to come running out with your legs between your legs. And that those places should hold a prize worth going back in after.

Badboy_12345
03-27-06, 07:03 AM
I dont get it how all the people rant how hard it is!
THERE IS A DIFFICULTY SLIDER ITS THERE FOR A PURPOSE!

not everyone is meant to accomplish the game on the extreme hard settings its there for people who have played through the game 10 times and want a real challenge.

god get over it and lower the difficulty.

agentkay
03-27-06, 07:11 AM
The difficulty is NOT the problem. The problem is that an important RPG gameplay aspect is gone. Iīm still fortunate that modders will be able to get it back, at least somewhat.

Mr Fujisawa
03-27-06, 07:13 AM
im in 2 minds about this. its good in that it stops ppl deliberatly overleveling to make the main quest easy, and it also means ur not limited to when you do it, itll never be too easy or too hard if its all scaled, this leaves u to go and do other stuff if u want. but i also agree its good when somethign is really far ahead of u and u work hard to try and get good enough to fight it, and its cool sometimes going round and raping everything with 1 hit, for a while at least

so far i havent had any issues, but im only level 5 :) (despite playing 20 hours or so!)

the theiving in this game is so similar to Theif, its great! its made me a complete kleptomaniac! i cant stop fecking stealing from everyone :o

i love that u can rob guards whilst they are sleeping, then the next day when they wake up they are missing their helmet or shield :P genius!

msxyz
03-27-06, 07:16 AM
I dont get it how all the people rant how hard it is!
THERE IS A DIFFICULTY SLIDER ITS THERE FOR A PURPOSE!

not everyone is meant to accomplish the game on the extreme hard settings its there for people who have played through the game 10 times and want a real challenge.

god get over it and lower the difficulty.This is not a FPS, you know?

"Lower the difficulty slider" is the most common answer I see coming from those who don't understand the roots of the problem

I can accept the fact that some battles a are harder than other. I don't accept the fact that my progression is meaningless because the world advance with me. What's the point of training, taking on adventures, stockpiling resources when all the rest of the people scale so easily while the main character of the story does it through hard work ?

When even scums in caves come dressed with ebony armor and wield weapons worth a fortune, you come to realize that something isn't right.

When I encounter chests with very strong locks containing nothing but a piece of cheese because the program think that I'm "not worthy enough" to find some good tresasure, I DO have a problem: this is straight piss poor design, not balancing!

People blindly defending Bethesda weren't looking for an RPG in the first place.

|MaguS|
03-27-06, 07:16 AM
The issue isn't the actual difficulty but rather that the difficulty doesn't stay static insted it constantly grows as your leveling so that even early area's are as tough as the later areas.

A major issue with this is there is a horrible risk vs reward. You work so hard at clearing a dungeon and defeat the boss finally after dying 3 times just to be greated with a potion and 30gp as your reward... If I have to reload saves more then once the reward better dam well be worth it and so far this game is lacking in that aspect... the more I play shows more and more of how rushed and unbalanced the game is.

Tygerwoody
03-27-06, 07:20 AM
I know EXACTLY how you guys feel. If I get more than two mobs around me, I am just a goner. Heck even two mobs can take me out with relative ease at lvl 16 if I'm not super kiting.

You guys aren't going to like this suggestion, but I lowered the difficulty of the game(which I NEVER EVER DO). I only lowered it maybe a 3/4ths of a centimeter on my screen. Its back to "playable" now. I still die quite often, but at least I don't have to kite with my bow for 30 minutes every kill. :thumbdwn:


Maybe this is why they included the slider in the first place? Even though this game has its problems, I still am absolutely in love with it and think it is a brilliant game. When you look back on the DETAIL that is consumed in it, Oblivion is more of a peice of art than a game.

|MaguS|
03-27-06, 07:22 AM
Just make a pure caster... they own everything from what I have seen. My Mage just summons a creature for distraction and can blast everything with ease...

msxyz
03-27-06, 07:31 AM
Well, it's over for me. I'm taking back to the shop the Xbox360 version for sale. Too bad I cannot cancel the order (it has already shipped) for that collector edition version for PC form the UK. At least with the CS some good MODs will be out.

But I don't like the idea of using amateur made mods to re-balance the game, because it's wrong on many levels. I've paid for a product that didn't meet certain standards and I'm not certain alone in thinking this.

SIMPLY what people wanted is Morrowind/Daggerfall but bigger, bolder, more beautiful and a whole new adventure.

Most of us don't like to fight bandit after bandit in ebony armour. I want to find and own the only known set of daedric armour in Tamriel. I want back all those things that made TES so magical

Instead we've been given a 3D hack'n'slash. And I feel like a prisoner in it because the game decide what's worth for me and what is not and it arbitrary changes the challenges making all my progresses futile.

Mr Fujisawa
03-27-06, 07:33 AM
I know EXACTLY how you guys feel. If I get more than two mobs around me, I am just a goner. Heck even two mobs can take me out with relative ease at lvl 16 if I'm not super kiting.

You guys aren't going to like this suggestion, but I lowered the difficulty of the game(which I NEVER EVER DO). I only lowered it maybe a 3/4ths of a centimeter on my screen. Its back to "playable" now. I still die quite often, but at least I don't have to kite with my bow for 30 minutes every kill. :thumbdwn:


Maybe this is why they included the slider in the first place? Even though this game has its problems, I still am absolutely in love with it and think it is a brilliant game. When you look back on the DETAIL that is consumed in it, Oblivion is more of a peice of art than a game.

i agree, the sum of the games parts is simply to rich and fulfiling to let even something at 'major' as broken leveling spoil it. if it REALLY did kill the game we wouldnt all still be playing it and loving it

also, ive seen it mentioned a few times but what is kiting?

Mr Fujisawa
03-27-06, 07:35 AM
Well, it's over for me. I'm taking back to the shop the Xbox360 version for sale. Too bad I cannot cancel the order (it has already shipped) for that collector edition version for PC form the UK. At least with the CS some good MODs will be out.

But I don't like the idea of using amateur made mods to re-balance the game, because it's wrong on many levels. I've paid for a product that didn't meet certain standards and I'm not certain alone in thinking this.

SIMPLY what people wanted is Morrowind/Daggerfall but bigger, bolder, more beautiful and a whole new adventure.

Most of us don't like to fight bandit after bandit in ebony armour. I want to find and own the only known set of daedric armour in Tamriel. I want back all those things that made TES so magical

Instead we've been given a 3D hack'n'slash. And I feel like a prisoner in it because the game decide what's worth for me and what is not and it arbitrary changes the challenges making all my progresses futile.

sucks its come to that.

do we know if theres any point in the game where u get high enough for enemies to become capped? or if there IS any unique really good armour?

msxyz
03-27-06, 07:38 AM
sucks its come to that.

do we know if theres any point in the game where u get high enough for enemies to become capped? or if there IS any unique really good armour?
Rats become capped at level 20 (!) Other monsters are just substituted with nastier versions.

You can kill a wolf at level 1 with some cheap iron arrow, but it takes a dozen of high quality glass/ebony to kill a mountain lion at higher levels.

This is how frustrating this game is.

agentkay
03-27-06, 07:39 AM
But wait, its more realistic this way, why shouldnīt all the other characters and creatures gain skill as well.... after all they have RAI, and gain experience over time, like your character. They donīt sit just on their asses and do nothing. /sarcasm

Donīt get me wrong, I still love the game. :D Iīm actually more pissed that the stupid mailman didnīt ring my doorbell and just left a notice while I was at home. This means I have to wait for tomorrow until I can play the English version. me :kill: mailman

|MaguS|
03-27-06, 07:47 AM
also, ive seen it mentioned a few times but what is kiting?

Kiting is attacking an emeny while retreating or running in an opposite direction while mantaining agro. Basically you keep your distance while pelting the mob with arrows or spells.

Mr Fujisawa
03-27-06, 08:14 AM
Rats become capped at level 20 (!) Other monsters are just substituted with nastier versions.

You can kill a wolf at level 1 with some cheap iron arrow, but it takes a dozen of high quality glass/ebony to kill a mountain lion at higher levels.

This is how frustrating this game is.

mountain lions are king of the jungle, what did u expect? :P

what about other monsters and things? would be nice if things capped at 45 or so, then u have a few more levels to get even better, only being troubled by group attacks. but at least they replace them with different enemies.