GeForce FX reviews and feedback

[PreservedSwine]

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,846356,00.asp

[PreservedSwine]

Wierd, seems to be up and down, here's some text.... Thermal Issues

click on image for full view

In addition to unleashing one of the most complex processors ever built, nVidia also got into the mechanical engineering business in creating its Flow FX thermal management system. The heat sink on the GeForceFX board we testesd is massive, so much so that the first PCI slot next to the AGP slot in our test system gets eaten, and the GeForceFX card was right on top of the 3Com NIC in the second PCI slot. Although neither ATI nor nVidia will tell us how many watts their latest 3D cards are pulling through the 12V power hook-up, nVidia is recommending no less than a 300-watt power supply, and one of nVidia's add-in board partners is actually recommending a 350-watt power supply to ensure that the GeForceFX remains fed and happy.

click on image for full view

The other painfully noticeable factor here is fan noise. The GeForceFX has already been nicknamed in some site forums as The DustBuster.

Despite running over 100 million transistors on 0.15-micron process, ATI is still able to use a fairly standard thermal solution on its Radeon 9700 Pro GPU. With Flow FX however, the card's massive fan has two speeds, idle and take-off. When you fire up any 3D app that pings either Direct3D or OpenGL, the Flow FX fan guns its motor up to full speed to cope with the increased thermal output coming from the GPU as a result of the more intense workload. However, Flow FX's throttling appears to be no more sophisticated than:

IF 3D app running, THEN fan at full throttle
ELSE run fan at idle speed.

The fan isn't really throttled per se, as that would suggest some kind of analog control to regulate fan speed. Rather, it's digitally switched between idle and full-open, so when it changes to high speed, the change is very abrupt. Interstingly, it does wind down more gracefully when returning to the idle speed once you exit the 3D app and things in the GPU core begin to cool down a bit. In fact, it kind of sounds like that creepy noise in The Matrix when Neo gets extracted from the Matrix for the first time. The first time I realized what the fan sounded like, I did a very Keanu-like "Whoa."

We did some sound pressure level measurements of the Flow FX system while we were testing. We put a Radio Shack decibel meter on a tripod and positioned the meter's microphone in the same position: approximately where your left ear would be when sitting in front of your monitor.

We used C-weighting for this measurement, which like A-weighting, emphasizes the range of human hearing (20Hz – 20KHz) but C-weighting has an attenuated high end. The C-curve is "flat," but with limited bandwidth, with -3 dB corners of 31.5 Hz and 8 kHz, respectively. [Source: Rane Pro Audio Reference

Here's what we found:

Radeon 9700 Pro's baseline sound level was about 54dB SPL (sound pressure level). When we fired up a 3D app, there was no change in the sound level. It remained at 54dB SPL.

The GeForceFX is a different story, however. Its baseline sound level was also around 54dB SPL, but upon starting up a 3D app, the Flow FX fan kicked into high gear, and the sound level rose to around 58dB SPL. Recall that decibels are on a logarithmic scale, so this 4dB increase represents more than a twofold increase in the sound level of the overall fan noise output of the test machine we used.

Admittedly, noise level doesn't top the list of considerations for anyone buying a GeForceFX, but a 2X increase in overall fan noise level is pretty serious. If you've already got enough fans getting air in and out of your CPU case to power a wind farm, then the GeForceFX will be right at home in your rig.


And now, the good (or in this case, the bad and the ugly:( )
Baseline: GeForceFX ahead by 6%
With FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 30%

Baseline 1 Light: GeForceFX ahead by 29%
1 Light with FSAA & AF: GeForceFX ahead by 14%

Baseline 8 Lights: GeForceFX ahead by 97%
8 Lights with FSAA & AF: GeForceFX ahead by 71%

Baseline Vertex Shader: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 24%
Vertex Shader with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 26%

Baseline Pixel Shader: GeForceFX ahead by 39%
Pixel Shader with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by %134

Baseline Advanced Pixel Shader: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 46%
Advanced Pixel Shader with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 87%

Baseline Nature Scene: GeForceFX ahead by 8%
Nature Scene with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 28%

3d GaME GAUGE
Baseline 3D GameGauge: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 5%
3D GameGauge with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 29%

Jedi Knight II and Serious Same SE

Baseline JK2: GeForceFX ahead by 3%
JK2 with FSAA & AF: GPUs are even

Baseline Serious Sam SE: GeForceFX ahead by 13%
Serious Sam SE with FSAA & AF: GeForceFX ahead by 29%

UT2003 and Dungeon Siege

Baseline UT2003: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 6%
UT2003 with FSAA & AF: GeForceFX ahead by 3%

Baseline Dungeon Siege: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 15%
Dungeon Siege with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 80%

Comanche 4, NASCAR 2002 and IL-2 Sturmovik

Baseline Comanche 4: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 3%
Comanche 4 with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 105%

Baseline NASCAR 2002: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 26%
NASCAR 2002 with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 44%

Baseline IL-2 Sturmovik: GPUs are even
IL-2 Sturmovik with FSAA & AF: Radeon 9700 Pro ahead by 48%


And, finally, The conclusion.....

GeForceFX: Not a Home Run


Final Thoughts

Appreciate that the results we're reporting here aren't the last word about GeForceFX. In fact, aside from our preview, this report is the opening chapter in what is to be an ongoing story between these two silicon gladiators. nVidia is still a month out from shipping GeForceFX, and that time is no doubt being spent tuning drivers, squishing bugs dead, and eeking every last ounce of performance possible out of this new flagship offering.

But given what we've seen here today, will that be enough?

Soon, ATI will likely be debuting products based around its upcoming R350 GPU, a "kicker" product in the R300 line designed to be a competitive riposte to the GeForceFX. But in kind, nVidia has NV35, the follow-on to GeForceFX, waiting in the wings.


Our initial conclusion is that the main thing holding back GeForceFX is its 128-bit memory interface. This is an area where nVidia has been trumped by the other major graphics players, since Matrox, 3DLabs and ATI all have 256-bit memory interfaces in their current-generation parts. But in examining the baseline 1600x1200 test results where we ran with neither FSAA or AF enabled, it's pretty clear that something else is holding GeForceFX back as well. On 3D GameGauge overall score, GeForceFX is actually a tick SLOWER than Radeon 9700 Pro. And on 3DMark 2001SE, GeForceFX is only 6% faster than Radeon 9700 Pro.

We're left to wonder how much headroom GeForceFX's driver team has to wring more performance out of this part, and a month from now, when we present you with final performance data gained from testing on final shipping hardware, this story might change.

It may be a case where our 1600x1200 test resolution, even with FSAA and AF disabled, was heavily taxing GeForceFX's 128-bit DDR2 memory interface, and costing it performance relative to the Radeon 9700 Pro. We won't be able to test for that until a version of the GeForceFX architecture with a revamped 256-bit memory interface darkens our doorstep. Will this be NV35? At this point, we're left to only speculate. But if the memory interface is indeed the gating factor, nVidia will need to address this issue and soon if it wants to recapture the 3D performance crown.

ATI has certainly raised the stakes with Radeon 9700 Pro, and if GeForceFX was coming into this brawl looking for a knockout, it didn't get one. Actually, what we saw is that the memory sub-system of GeForceFX hits a pretty hard wall when you combine a high resolution and bandwidth-hungry rendering features like FSAA and AF.

Having presented these findings, our task is to now dig deeper and test other resolutions and other render state settings to see where each GPU thrives, and where each one gives up the ghost. It may well be the case that with its sizeable engine clock advantage, GeForceFX could demolish Radeon 9700 Pro on tests involving complex shader programs. But those tests, or those games for that matter, aren't here yet. But on the few shader-specific data points we were able to gather, GeForce FX didn't steam-roll ATI here.

For nVidia, GeForceFX represents a return to at the very least performance parity with ATI. For ATI however, Radeon 9700 Pro looks strong versus GeForceFX, and these results show just how much performance ground nVidia had lost to ATI when Radeon 9700 Pro first shipped.

Depending on how quickly R350 and NV35 show up, NV30's window of relavence may be short-lived, although it remains to be seen how quickly the GeForceFX will propigate down into the mainstream prices the majority of add-in board shoppers seek.

As it currently stands, GeForceFX's exotic thermal solution will make this card very tough to quickly drive down to mainstream, sub-$200 prices. We've heard rumblings about two value-oriented versions of the NV30, code-named NV31 and NV34, although to date we don't have specfic information about these parts. One of these GPUs will likely be a clock-reduced eight-pipe version of NV30, and the other a close to fullly-clocked NV30 with four pixel pipes. ATI followed much the same course in diversifying the Radeon 9xxx line of GPUs.

A rematch in the wake of this scrimmage is imminent, and this story may change by the time GeForceFX ships. How much it changes is largely up to the driver gurus at nVidia and ATI.

When these two GPUs face off against one another again in the coming weeks, this will be a 15-rounder, and neither GPU is going to get an early knockout.

The other burning question is, when will R350-based boards from ATI make their debut? The smart money says that ATI would love nothing more than to steal nVidia's GeForceFX thunder by debuting its new GPU coincidentally with nVidia's newest GPU just beginning to ship. These two companies delight in crashing one another's product launches.

Needless to say, the 3D graphics battle is going to take some interesting twists and turns in the coming weeks. Stay tuned...

This is much worse than I anticipated


:banghead:

[tazdevl]

I think it's always a positive experience for companies that get arrogant to be slapped around a bit. Hopefully nVIDIA will learn from their mistakes and make the next round of products great, without the attitude or poorly executed "Are You Ready" marketing campaigns.

It'll be interesting to see how it's going to do against a R350.

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by tazdevl

It'll be interesting to see how it's going to do against a R350.

Well, the R9700 seriously outperforms the NV30, so why should ATI even release the R350??

[ErrorS]

Originally posted by PreservedSwine
Well, the R9700 seriously outperforms the NV30, so why should ATI even release the R350??

id expect this to change by the time NV30 gets on store shelves.. nVidia wont waste money on production if the card isnt at least as fast as the R9700

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by ErrorS
id expect this to change by the time NV30 gets on store shelves.. nVidia wont waste money on production if the card isnt at least as fast as the R9700

Newsflash......The money has already been wasted on R&D...This was the most Nvidia ever spent on R&D, they can't afford not to sell it....

[Cotita]

Looking at the initial reviews it seems clear that the nv30 has the same achilles heel as the nv25/28

AA/AF performance hit is HUGE. I tought that was where the nv30 would totally own the radeon9700. Only in a few benchmarks is the nv30 able to beat the radeon and only by a small difference.

I expected so much more from the nv30, considering its 66% faster clockspeed.

Well radeon9700 owners will be happy they didn't wait.

Enough waiting for me, time to ditch nvidia and get a radeon9700.

[jAkUp]

now its official, i have no words to express how dissapointed i am.. i waited all this time... for this?? i could of had this 6 months ago!!! nvidia let me down this time... been an nvidia card owner for over 4 years... this is pathetic

[ChrisW]

I wonder how many people are going to be cancelling their pre-orders after reading that?

[gokickrocks]

Originally posted by jAkUp
now its official, i have no words to express how dissapointed i am.. i waited all this time... for this?? i could of had this 6 months ago!!! nvidia let me down this time... been an nvidia card owner for over 4 years... this is pathetic

well, think of it this way...

if nvidia actually released the nv30 (using the original specs they had at the time) at the time of the 9700 pro launch, than you'd probably would have gone ballistic if you had gone out and purchased it...

[demonized]

Im not ready to go back to ATI . Im going to sleep and read all the reviews when i wake up this morning. If nothing changes and the trend continues then thats when i make my decision.

[Gargr]

"With Flow FX however, the card's massive fan has two speeds, idle and take-off."

"In fact, it kind of sounds like that creepy noise in The Matrix when Neo gets extracted from the Matrix for the first time. The first time I realized what the fan sounded like, I did a very Keanu-like "Whoa.""


Take-off

wehhehehehe
:D

[Gehenna_CA]

Extremely disappointed here. I WILL NOT spend the outrageous sum Nvidia will be asking for this product. Hopefully this will put them in their place for a while and make them realize that they are no longer pushing the technological envelope anymore and just trying to coast on previous advancements isn't going to cut it.

They HAD to know that their product couldn't compete with the 9700 pro before they even gave out their samples. What the hell were they thinking?

I'll be switching back to the R350 when I upgrade unless the fx moves to a 256bit bus and is re-released im the summer.

Maybe that new s3 gpu will actually turn out to be something good, if they can get it to production before they miss the cycle and are stompped by the ATI steamroller.

[jAkUp]

if the fx is rereleased this summer with a 256bit bus, im sure that will piss even more people off that bought a geforcefx... im still in the middle of my decision.

[Gehenna_CA]

I've been a big supporter of Nvidia for a long time, I've owned 5 different nvidia chips. I hope this is all a bad dream. If it isn't I here-by rename the Geforce FX the...



Geforce Floppage eXtreme.
My work here is done.

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by jAkUp
if the fx is rereleased this summer with a 256bit bus, im sure that will piss even more people off that bought a geforcefx... im still in the middle of my decision.

I would be vey surprised if they pulled of a 256 bit bus on this one. After all, they are already up to a 12 layer PCB. Adding a robust 256 bit bus would be *very* unlikely. They would have to ramp down the core speed substantially, and that, I suspect, would throw many current feature designs off-balance.

[mikechai]

NVIDIA should be learning their lesson now.
They have under-estimated ATI which set the pace with their Radeon 9700 series. Kudos to ATI.
There is no excuse anymore for not implementing 256bit memory bus anymore with their NV35.
No more marketing talk, gimmick, excuses and bull****, NVIDIA.
They just have to get off their butt and start WORKING HARD !!!
________
Harley-Davidson VRSCR (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSCR)

[jAkUp]

and they said this thing could push 20gb's per second... bwahahahahhahahahaha!!! if they charge an arm and a leg for this thing, to make up for all the money they spent on a vacum cleaner, they're gonna go the way of:

http://www.3dfx.com/images/logo-all.jpg


im curious as to what nvidia has to say now...

[mikechai]

and they said this thing could push 20gb's per second...

And what's with the "FREE" 4x FSAA & optimized for 4x FSAA operations "marketing talk" ....

By the way, how is NVIDIA stock price going ?
________
spice weed (http://syntheticweed.org)

[ChrisW]

I thought they were claiming 48GB verses the Radeon 9700's 19?

[jAkUp]

bah, for all i know they could of claimed 100 million gb per second... it seems all they do is claim and never back anything up

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by ChrisW
I thought they were claiming 48GB verses the Radeon 9700's 19?
That's including compression techniques. The NV30 has 16GB of real bandwidth. The R9700 has 19.8GB of real bandwidth.

The NV 30 was claiming lossless 4x1 compression ratio. (16x4=48)

Of course, ATI's compression is also 4x1, theoretically giving it 79.2GB of bandwidth.

If anything, the NV30 has been a lesson in the difference between marketing and reality.

[SavagePaladin]

Actually the compression, if you look at ALL of it, is much more than 4x on either card. (Or so I was told)

I'd like to see more opengl games tested. This is curious. and as for what else I'd like to see, well I've already covered that about 3000 times :p:)

[uNdErNiNe]

I knew from the moment that Nvidia annouced it would a 128-bit bus and all the delays and **** that the board would be disapointing, that is why i didnt wait and bought a Radeon 9700. Its sad because 3DFX fell because of wanting sheer hardware power instead of architectural finesse. It's really sad because ATi has got Nvidia where they want them... but it's far from over, i hope NV35 is actually worth waiting for.. because regardless the Geforce FX is not that bad of a card (just disapointing) and it doesnt cost that much more than a 9700 PRO at Best Buy or Circuit City.

[jAkUp]

ya... but the point is nvidia made claims it couldnt back up... they tried too hard to win us over with all those cheesy marketing scheems(remember those) rather than delivering what it promised