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msxyz
04-09-06, 07:09 AM
RAI is nothing more than a schedule system, for the most part, with little or no interaction except for what is scripted; here is a little funny video to show how retarded, the AI still look like:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6KN7cKO8-P0&search=oblivion

I would gladly have dropped the physics for a more believable behaviour of NPCS which is probably a much less computing intensive task than simulating a bunch of mugs and plates falling off the table each time the NPCs are whacked with the sword.

Such is the nature of the gaming market today. Graphic *****s cry rivers if soft shadows are cut or if a game doesn't come with believable physics, yet it's perfectly fine with them if the MOST important aspect of a RPG (interaction with other characters and the world) still doesn't look better than a 15 years old RPG on a 8 bit console.

|MaguS|
04-09-06, 07:20 AM
The AI is just plain stupid, just like most games. Problem is people refuse to believe it because they see some NPC stealing or talking to each other... but these are just scripted events, Smart AI would react to the player... not to itself.

msxyz
04-09-06, 07:27 AM
Indeed... Sometimes at a first glance RAI might seem believable but its limits become evident pretty soon.

Here's another video of the dumb AI in action. This is even better than the last! :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F8hetpJxXSw

Pepsiboy
04-09-06, 04:09 PM
ROFLL

This is insane...i didnt know it was this bad. It seems fine to me. There has to be a way to improve the AI through a plugin or something.

msxyz
04-09-06, 04:56 PM
Try this... commit some crime, then resist arrest and tow one or more guard into another area. You'll see people attacking the guard(s) because the AI is so stupid that it does not check the identity of the attacker but it only assumes that whoever enter in that cell shwoing hostile behaviour is a potential threat.

It works also between guards, if your bounty is low enough not to draw their attention first.

Clay
04-09-06, 05:01 PM
It's a computer game. I've not played any other games that either come close to Oblivion's pseudo-AI, much less surpass it. F.E.A.R. has some pretty good enemy AI but FPS AI seems to be a simpler task than a full blown RPG. I don't know, I guess I wasn't expecting discrete models of the human brain unique to each NPC in the game.

jAkUp
04-09-06, 05:11 PM
Yea, the AI is not bery good. I can make even better videos than those with some of the stuff I have seen. The NPC's just don't seem to be aware of what is going on.

Also, how does simply grabbing something off a table mean your going to steal it? I mean, all you have to do to have some guy swinging a sword at you is simply pick something up, and place it somewhere else in a store or house.

In any event, its extremely difficult to programm A.I. in a game like this with unlimited posabilities.

CaptNKILL
04-09-06, 05:19 PM
Try this... commit some crime, then resist arrest and tow one or more guard into another area. You'll see people attacking the guard(s) because the AI is so stupid that it does not check the identity of the attacker but it only assumes that whoever enter in that cell shwoing hostile behaviour is a potential threat.

Well, thats what I thought too but I noticed recently that that isnt exactly how it goes. Remember the developers talking about the way some NPCs arent exactly law-abiding, while others are? I think that has a lot to do with it. Most NPCs will run away when a guard is after me, others will fight the guard. From what I can tell, this is because they are "bad" NPCs that have a high disposition toward me (i talked up most of the characters in the imperial city early on). They hate guards more than they hate me, so when the guards attack me, they help me out.

The AI is far from SMART, but I think some of the things that look like stupid glitches only appear that way because you wouldnt expect it to be as complex as it is.

RAI isnt just a set of scripted "walk here at x time" events. But it also isnt going to fool you into thinking youre in another world. Its just a game. Most RPGs have practically no AI because everything is either static or scripted. Considering how many thousands of different scenarios this system has to deal with, I think it does a great job.

EDIT: Also, saying that this game has the same AI as a game from 15 years ago is complete BS. I dont even know how you can compare it to anything other than another elder scrolls game... there are no other games that allow this much freedom, with this many options and this many characters. Name me one game anywhere ever that can compare to this game AI-wise... if its a 15 year old NES game, I'll even give you a cookie ;).

EDIT2: LMAO! That second video you posted is great :D
I dont know why it did that, but its a lot more interesting than having everyone walking back and forth doing nothing.

Brimstone7
04-09-06, 06:58 PM
I think that Radiant AI was a pretty successful experiment. Anyone that went in thinking this one game solved all the problems that have plagued artificial intelligence since the field of study was created was kidding themselves from the start. Right now I'm happy that the NPCs eat, sleep, close up their shops, etc. It's far more than I've seen in any other game. This is just one more thing that will be tweaked in the next installment to make it more believable.

There are a lot of things wrong with Oblivion but I don't think that this is one of them.

Banko
04-09-06, 07:08 PM
Well, thats what I thought too but I noticed recently that that isnt exactly how it goes. Remember the developers talking about the way some NPCs arent exactly law-abiding, while others are? I think that has a lot to do with it. Most NPCs will run away when a guard is after me, others will fight the guard. From what I can tell, this is because they are "bad" NPCs that have a high disposition toward me (i talked up most of the characters in the imperial city early on). They hate guards more than they hate me, so when the guards attack me, they help me out.

The AI is far from SMART, but I think some of the things that look like stupid glitches only appear that way because you wouldnt expect it to be as complex as it is.

RAI isnt just a set of scripted "walk here at x time" events. But it also isnt going to fool you into thinking youre in another world. Its just a game. Most RPGs have practically no AI because everything is either static or scripted. Considering how many thousands of different scenarios this system has to deal with, I think it does a great job.

EDIT: Also, saying that this game has the same AI as a game from 15 years ago is complete BS. I dont even know how you can compare it to anything other than another elder scrolls game... there are no other games that allow this much freedom, with this many options and this many characters. Name me one game anywhere ever that can compare to this game AI-wise... if its a 15 year old NES game, I'll even give you a cookie ;).

EDIT2: LMAO! That second video you posted is great :D
I dont know why it did that, but its a lot more interesting than having everyone walking back and forth doing nothing.
No offense or anything but you really are one blind oblivian fan boy. The AI blows, any older RPG has better AI then this.

Clay
04-09-06, 07:22 PM
The AI blows, any older RPG has better AI then this.That's the silliest thing I've read in a long time. :rofl

Is Oblivion perfect? No. Is the AI going to perfectly satisfy what some people assumed it to be? No. To think anything else seems very naive to me. Oh well, there will always be those that find fault in something. Why not make a plugin to suit it more towards your expectations? :)

CaptNKILL
04-09-06, 07:24 PM
No offense or anything but you really are one blind oblivian fan boy. The AI blows, any older RPG has better AI then this.
Calling me a fanboy and saying the AI blows doesnt prove anything.

If older RPGs have better AI, why hasnt anyone posted any examples?

Limiting what the player can do isnt considered good AI, but that is the method most RPGs take.

Right now the only thing that you can even compare here is that the guards sometimes (and i have never personally seen this while playing) fight eachother in this game, where as in an old RPG like Baldur's Gate or other similar games, Ive never heard of that happening.

Nothing else even compares. Unless someone wants to give some examples...

Clay
04-09-06, 07:44 PM
It could be categorized as a form of scripting (well, it is) but the persuasion/conversation aspect of Oblivion is unlike any game I've played (other than Morrowind). NPCs react to you differently based on the decisions you make during a conversation (and not just picking from canned answers). Once you have advanced more in this area you are given even more control by being able to rotate the conversation slider once per turn which adds a lot to this part of the game.

I would like to hear of some examples in games that came out in 1991 that have better AI than Oblivion. Heck, TES: Arena came out in 1995 and it blew away any RPG of that time in terms of AI, gameplay, etc IMO.

CaptNKILL
04-09-06, 07:56 PM
(moved this to a new post, rather than an edit, I think Clay's post above was in response to this)

Also, before anyone corrects me, I'll correct myself :D There arent any "good" or "evil" NPC traits that I can find in the editor that arent scripted (though they may be there, I just glanced at it), but NPCs do have traits based on aggression, confidence and Responsibility. On top of that is their disposition and guild affiliations, which as far as I know are constantly effecting how they react to everyone in the world, not just the player. Its possible that in that video where the guy summoned the zombie that the other NPC that helped him was in his guild (they were both conjurers...), had a high aggression, and a low responsibility.

Obviously the part where the guards began fighting was a really silly glitch... unless someone used command or frenzy spells on them to make them go insane. Thats possible, but it looked like a glitch to me... maybe they will patch it.

For what its worth, it also isnt as simple as "guards dont attack guards". I guess they could have had some sort of override to force that, but like I said before, the AI uses Aggression, Confidence and Responsibility to govern what happens. If a sequence of events occurs that gives an NPC 100 aggressions, 100 confidence and 0 responsibility (shop keepers in the game have 100), then its likely that they will just start attacking everyone. If this can happen to a guard somehow, then you'll have berserk guards.

Im not an AI programmer but having done a little research in the construction set and having listened to and read interviews for dozens of hours over the past year, I know at least a little about how it works, beyond "Jeez, I saw a glitch, the AI sucks compared to Final Fantasy 7".

5H4RP
04-09-06, 09:18 PM
Wouldn't it be great to have a RAI bloopers disc in the next expansion pack? Now that's something I'd be interested in. Comedy gold. Tamriels Funniest Videos. :)

For the record, I thought Gothic2 NPCs and limited AI and full schedules worked better than RAI for the most part. There weren't alot of threads about how ridiculously easy it was to exploit the AI or the funny things you could do it.
Sure, Gothic does not have the user base that TES has but still plenty of people played it and it never seemed to be an issue. For some reason, that AI seemed less...obtrusive perhaps?

Seems like the closer we try to get to realism the further away we move. We have along ways to go.

The biggest offense with RAI is the friendly fire issue. I constantly have escorts or horses walking into a fight ..then I accidently hit them, then they go aggro and hit me back. Fairly irritating. That would be my number one issue to fix. Well that and moddable keys for us PC users. Ridiculous we can't customize keys, common ones like M = map or I = Inventory.

CaptNKILL
04-09-06, 09:42 PM
Wouldn't it be great to have a RAI bloopers disc in the next expansion pack? Now that's something I'd be interested in. Comedy gold. Tamriels Funniest Videos. :)

For the record, I thought Gothic2 NPCs and limited AI and full schedules worked better than RAI for the most part. There weren't alot of threads about how ridiculously easy it was to exploit the AI or the funny things you could do it.
Sure, Gothic does not have the user base that TES has but still plenty of people played it and it never seemed to be an issue. For some reason, that AI seemed less...obtrusive perhaps?

Seems like the closer we try to get to realism the further away we move. We have along ways to go.

The biggest offense with RAI is the friendly fire issue. I constantly have escorts or horses walking into a fight ..then I accidently hit them, then they go aggro and hit me back. Fairly irritating. That would be my number one issue to fix. Well that and moddable keys for us PC users. Ridiculous we can't customize keys, common ones like M = map or I = Inventory.
Gothic 2's AI wasnt bad. I dont think it was anywhere near as complex though (at least it didnt show). Some people did things at certain times of day, but overall it still felt "flat".

Oh, and the F1-F4 keys open up some menus... I saw that in the readme.txt. It says it was something that was added after the manual was made, so it didnt make it in.

-New Quick Keys. Press F1 - F4 to access your Journal and Stats menu
F1 - Stats
F2 - Inventory Menu
F3 - Magic Menu
F4 - Maps and Quests

You might be able to edit those in the .ini file if you want them on different keys :)

SH64
04-10-06, 01:41 AM
If this kind of AI is bringing our CPUs to thier knees , i dont wanna think what an advanced non-scripted AI will do!
anyway hope some of the RAI glitches get fixed with the upcoming patches.

msxyz
04-10-06, 01:53 AM
RAI is at the level of Ultima 7 AI... no more no less.

That's a game of 1991. Building a credible AI does not need a lot of CPU power as the algorithm kicks in only during certain events (enemy/crime seen, etc) or at a certain time (schedules) and it does not need to be updated constantly as a physics engine would need.

Gothic AI is still much more advanced than anything I've seen in any other RPG. Just try to equip a sword in a town and see the various reactions; same way if you try to "sneak" in the open.

glObalist
04-10-06, 01:59 AM
It does get retarded at times.

I just led Martin and Jauffre (yea I'm still that early into the game) into Imperial city, and the first thing they do is stirr up a fight with a couple of citizens and guards. These guys are amazing however - I've been taking them along on my journeys, into oblivion gates and dungeons, they make life much easier with how they just won't die and always fight for you . :D

But then we bump into this horse on the road somewhere, I jump on it, but Martin starts yelling "Don't you dare steal from me!!!111" and proceeds to kill me in 3 blows. This AI blows. :thumbdwn:

Sidric
04-10-06, 02:33 AM
The horse you're riding on is more than likely stolen. All NPCs behave like that if you steal anything and they see you. Kind of bizarre since in reality he probably wouldn't have known the horse was stolen anyway, but thats the way it works in this game. :screwy:

msxyz
04-10-06, 04:41 AM
Another bad thing is that guards must have a lame "see through wall" hax enabled because it's almost impossible to evade them once they start to chase you. That or a constat effect detect life spell, because I've tried any trick in the bag and they will still find me.

So much for the promised "Thief like" experience. Another overhyped and underdeliverd promise.

gray fox
04-10-06, 05:22 AM
No offense or anything but you really are one blind oblivian fan boy. The AI blows, any older RPG has better AI then this.

You sure your playing the same game as me ??? Oblivions AI is one of the best for freelance AI and besides no games perfect your expectations were obviously to high.

CaptNKILL
04-10-06, 10:05 AM
RAI is at the level of Ultima 7 AI... no more no less.

That's a game of 1991. Building a credible AI does not need a lot of CPU power as the algorithm kicks in only during certain events (enemy/crime seen, etc) or at a certain time (schedules) and it does not need to be updated constantly as a physics engine would need.

Gothic AI is still much more advanced than anything I've seen in any other RPG. Just try to equip a sword in a town and see the various reactions; same way if you try to "sneak" in the open.
Like I said before, Im not a professional game developer, but I have to correct you here. I have done simple AI in a 2d game I made and it DOES update constantly. Thats how it works in real time game. My AI had a check that went constantly to detect a "line of sight" from an enemy to the player (it was an overhead view tank game). On top of that, it was also checking to see if it was in range of the player's gunfire to "hear" him through a wall and then go looking for him.

What Im getting at is that AI is not "X NPC go to X house at X time", thats a scripted scheduling system (though the one in Oblivion is dynamic... if youre fighting with the guy at dinner time, he wont just run away and go to the pub).

And I still dont see your side of the argument... you say its the level of ultima 7, but you dont say how. I dont get how its even possible to compare the two.

And the comparison to Gothic 2 doesnt say much. In Gothic 2, every NPC in the area gets pissed if you have your sword out. In Oblivion, things are much more lax. However, if you walk up to someone and look at their face, sheath and unsheath your weapon. Their face changes to show that their disposition toward you is lower when you talk to them with your weapon drawn. When they walk away and go talk to someone else, the effects of this go away.

In Gothic 2, everyone wants to kill you if you have a sword. If you put it away without hurting anyone, you can go talk to them and they still say the same 1 or 2 lines, and thats all the indication you have of whats going on. There is no disposition, there is no complex AI that makes people like you or dislike you (or anyone else). Any interaction with the player (other than "get mad", "fight" and "loot players body") is scripted. It works fine in that game, but it doesnt have half the features that Oblivion does, and the gameworld has nowhere near as many people or possibilities. If Oblivion had AI that simplistic itd stick out like a sore thumb.

CaptNKILL
04-10-06, 10:16 AM
But then we bump into this horse on the road somewhere, I jump on it, but Martin starts yelling "Don't you dare steal from me!!!111" and proceeds to kill me in 3 blows. This AI blows. :thumbdwn:
So the AI blows because you saw his horse, hit the "steal horse" button (when the cursor is red and you use something, thats stealing) and he killed you for it?

Sounds more like you shouldnt try to steal Martin's horse ;)

But yeah, killing you is a bit extreme... lesson learned though right?

EDIT: Also, I just remembered. If you were able to get off the horse and yield to him (hold block, and activate him) he would probably accept and you would be spared.

Another bad thing is that guards must have a lame "see through wall" hax enabled because it's almost impossible to evade them once they start to chase you. That or a constat effect detect life spell, because I've tried any trick in the bag and they will still find me.

So much for the promised "Thief like" experience. Another overhyped and underdeliverd promise.
I have to admit I was pretty disapointed here as well. But an invisibility spell (such as the Moonshadow ability that The Shadow birthsign gives) works great if you run around a corner and use it. They start running around looking for you... its pretty cool.

I deffinitely wish they would have had some sort of timer though... like if youre out of sight for 5 seconds, they should lose you and begin searching.

They probably have reasons for leaving things like this out this time though. If we were AI programmers we might actually be able to give these guys tips on how to do their job, but we arent.

Rolland
04-10-06, 02:30 PM
Another bad thing is that guards must have a lame "see through wall" hax enabled because it's almost impossible to evade them once they start to chase you. That or a constat effect detect life spell, because I've tried any trick in the bag and they will still find me.

So much for the promised "Thief like" experience. Another overhyped and underdeliverd promise.


There is a MOD for this now. Not sure the exact name but it's in a "Bundle" of Mods that is listed on Fileplanet now. Must have like 15 mods that all work together and fix a lot of issues. I used almost all of them. I didn't load this one because I don't steal or fight against the Guards with my Knight char, but I probably will if/when I role a Thief/Assassin :) This mode fixes it so that only the guards in a "normal" hearing range respond to a cry for help. If there are no guards in the area, then none show up :)

Not sure about the "Thief" at night kind of thing though...but I think it address this (esp) issue as well :)

I'll try and post a link and the name of the specific mod when I get home.

Good luck! :)