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Ninja Prime
04-14-06, 03:04 AM
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060413-6600.html

Just came across this, wondering how true it is... That's a hell of a lot of ram and resources for an OS. Something to do with their new DRM maybe?

Seems like the PS3 keeps getting delayed and downgraded. First it was what, 1000x the PS2(which would be like 6 teraFLOPS), then it was 1 teraFLOP, then the final spec was 256 gigaFLOPS, then it was lowered due to one SPE being chopped for yeilds, then lowered again because one SPE is always reserved for the OS, and now maybe a second SPE is reserved, and the RAM is basically lowered, because 64MB of system RAM and 32MB of graphics RAM is reserved for the OS... WTF?

Beginning to doubt Sony's hype about it being all powerful, sounds like a another case of the PS2 disease. Might just be a rumor though, so we'll see.

Knot3D
04-14-06, 04:33 AM
Rumours.

The OS will only use performance for online MP games.

Single player offline games = not affected.

Subtestube
04-14-06, 05:10 AM
Matter of interest, anyone have figures for the memory consumption for the 360 OS? Because without that, it's a little presumptuos to say the Sony one is crap and inefficient. I'm not saying it's not, just that for all I know at least, it might not be.

|MaguS|
04-14-06, 06:58 AM
Did you see where this news originated from? The POS site called PS3Portal...

Seriously, How does anyone know how the OS will work when it hasn't been shown at all yet. I mean they talk about memory consumption like they know the entire inner workings of both the x360 and the ps3.

He doesn't even mention that the PS3 also has the PPE available to do work, he completly ignores that and that the GPU doesn't need to do anything for the OS since the CELL is fully capable of rendering all of it if they want to. Also, seriously 96MB for the OS? What a crock... The PSP OS is great and very light weight. I dout the PS3's is going to differ much from it.

Very stupid article, the author leaves tons of information out on both consoles and still doesn't state sources... just anonymous sources (BS).

Edge
04-14-06, 09:19 AM
Matter of interest, anyone have figures for the memory consumption for the 360 OS? Because without that, it's a little presumptuos to say the Sony one is crap and inefficient. I'm not saying it's not, just that for all I know at least, it might not be.
I believe that either 32MB or 64MB of the Xbox 360's RAM is set aside for the Dashboard/Live/system resources/etc., as well as 5% of two of the cores on the system. So a little under 4% of the CPU cycles and either 1/16th or 1/8th of the console's RAM is used for system related functions. But this also means that Live-oriented features in a game wouldn't take up any additional resources like they did on the original Xbox.

I also heard that part of the RAM usage comes from a "virtual cache" that can be used like the harddrive's cache, but obviously much faster. Not sure why they included that, maybe so that games have a temporary place to put data in case you're using a harddrive-less Core?

ENU291
04-14-06, 03:32 PM
I believe that either 32MB or 64MB of the Xbox 360's RAM is set aside for the Dashboard/Live/system resources/etc., as well as 5% of two of the cores on the system. So a little under 4% of the CPU cycles and either 1/16th or 1/8th of the console's RAM is used for system related functions. But this also means that Live-oriented features in a game wouldn't take up any additional resources like they did on the original Xbox.

I also heard that part of the RAM usage comes from a "virtual cache" that can be used like the harddrive's cache, but obviously much faster. Not sure why they included that, maybe so that games have a temporary place to put data in case you're using a harddrive-less Core?Where are you getting this info from?

Ninja Prime
04-14-06, 04:13 PM
I believe that either 32MB or 64MB of the Xbox 360's RAM is set aside for the Dashboard/Live/system resources/etc., as well as 5% of two of the cores on the system. So a little under 4% of the CPU cycles and either 1/16th or 1/8th of the console's RAM is used for system related functions.

If you go into the discussion thread there, they are talking about that, I got this quote, supposedly from some developer:

Everything that one wants to do involving software on a Game Console, specifically while the user is playing games, comes at a cost. In the case of the Xbox360, this cost is approximately 2% of total CPU time and 6.25% of the Xbox360's total available RAM. Balancing these out, one could argue that MS has removed a total of 4% of the Xbox360's total available system power in order to provide these features and more which were not mentioned.

Ninja Prime
04-14-06, 04:22 PM
Did you see where this news originated from? The POS site called PS3Portal...

Seriously, How does anyone know how the OS will work when it hasn't been shown at all yet. I mean they talk about memory consumption like they know the entire inner workings of both the x360 and the ps3.

He doesn't even mention that the PS3 also has the PPE available to do work, he completly ignores that and that the GPU doesn't need to do anything for the OS since the CELL is fully capable of rendering all of it if they want to. Also, seriously 96MB for the OS? What a crock... The PSP OS is great and very light weight. I dout the PS3's is going to differ much from it.

Very stupid article, the author leaves tons of information out on both consoles and still doesn't state sources... just anonymous sources (BS).

Fanboy much? I mean, seriously, I don't think the article insulted your mom or your honor or some such, but the first thing you do is insult and discredit A) Both sites in question. B) The article writer at Ars, which generally has more knowledge about these things than anyone else. C) The sites information source.

It COULD just be rumor, but they seem to think its some sort of exclusive info and I doubt a PS3 fansite would be the first to claim bad things about PS3.

Rakeesh
04-14-06, 08:23 PM
The PSP OS is great and very light weight. I dout the PS3's is going to differ much from it.

Based on what?

Fanboy much? I mean, seriously, I don't think the article insulted your mom or your honor or some such, but the first thing you do is insult and discredit

Remember he is mega ps2 developer man who knows everything there is to know about Sony.

I don't know whether any of this is true, but it would be possible that since the specs of the system were supposed to be so high in the beginning that they started the OS from the ground up based on the expectation that they would have plenty to work with. I think the idea that just because the PSP OS was light means the PS3 OS would be light is...well...stupid. You are talking two completely different architectures with one being designed for low power usage and one being designed for the total opposite. Odds are they are going to start with a new OS from scratch with completely different design goals. Seeing how we are this late in the game, it wouldn't be surprising it is simply too late to start over on the OS. Hell, this alone could be the reason they are delaying the thing.

Again that is not at all to say that any of this is true, nor am I suggesting that it is true, I am only throwing a possible explanation out there if it is the case.

|MaguS|
04-14-06, 08:41 PM
Based on what?

Based on the information available to the community and actually using the OS, not making up info and claiming its from some developer...

As for me being a developer, no I was a programmer and haven't been for awhile now.

Ninja Prime, Im insulted that anyone with half a brain is even considering this rumor. You all treat sony like they don't know anything about software and hardware.

Just sick of people thinking every stupid rumor is true because some article claims to have gotten the information from an "anonymous source".

/evilchris mode on

OMG PSP to h4Ve 4GB HD and TouchSC33Rn! !?@#!

S0nY St3aling id3as from R3volUtion and using Th3m in the Ps3!@ ?1

(I can't do it as good as he does...)
/evilchris mode off

SCE isn't stupid, they know what they are doing.

slick
04-14-06, 08:50 PM
Fanboy much? I mean, seriously, I don't think the article insulted your mom or your honor or some such, but the first thing you do is insult and discredit A) Both sites in question. B) The article writer at Ars, which generally has more knowledge about these things than anyone else. C) The sites information source.

It COULD just be rumor, but they seem to think its some sort of exclusive info and I doubt a PS3 fansite would be the first to claim bad things about PS3.

QFT.

Magus: Ars is probably one of the most reliable, thorough, and respected technical sites out there. Never once have I heard anyone discredit the work they do there. You take this stuff so personally, never once does he in any way talk about this in a condescending fashion towards Sony, and he makes it quite explicitly clear (multiple times) that not all of the items in the discussion are "fact". Based on the information provided and factual knowledge he has of the PS3 he gave his opinion on just how true those numbers could be. He said that they are "plausible", as in could very well be true, but at the same time it could very well not be true.

evilchris
04-14-06, 09:32 PM
I cannot imagine how any of you horrible people could call magus a ps3 fanboy. What the hell would give you this impression?

oldsk00l
04-14-06, 09:39 PM
Based on the information available to the community and actually using the OS, not making up info and claiming its from some developer...

As for me being a developer, no I was a programmer and haven't been for awhile now.

Ninja Prime, Im insulted that anyone with half a brain is even considering this rumor. You all treat sony like they don't know anything about software and hardware.

Just sick of people thinking every stupid rumor is true because some article claims to have gotten the information from an "anonymous source".

/evilchris mode on

OMG PSP to h4Ve 4GB HD and TouchSC33Rn! !?@#!

S0nY St3aling id3as from R3volUtion and using Th3m in the Ps3!@ ?1

(I can't do it as good as he does...)
/evilchris mode off

SCE isn't stupid, they know what they are doing.

Then why is the platform closed? Why was the unit running at 233MHz for so long? Why are the game sales lagging? Why are the movie studios pulling out of UMD? Why is it that the number of "8" and "9" titles on most review sites are pretty sparse? Why do the graphics suck compared to PS2 games when the PSP has the same amount of RAM and more computational power? Why does the PSP suck, and is selling poorly, if SCE knows what they are doing?

I find that you said "SCE isn't stupid" tantamount to hilarity. They sure seem pretty damned stupid these last two years...

Mr. Hunt
04-14-06, 11:30 PM
I cannot imagine how any of you horrible people could call magus a ps3 fanboy. What the hell would give you this impression?

Calling Magus a Sony fanboy is about as accurate as calling you an Xbox fanboy... oh wait.

Ninja Prime
04-14-06, 11:43 PM
SCE isn't stupid, they know what they are doing.

I don't know about that nowadays... PS2 was difficult to program for and tons of developers complained about it, so they went and made PS3 even more difficult? Star Wars should have been the ultimate MMORPG setting and somehow Sony managed to make it so horrible no one wants to play it? PSP was supposedly more powerful than the PS2 but looks far worse most of the time? Planetside was the only game of its kind and made a huge splash, yet Sony somehow managed to ruin it?

Sometimes Sony's decisions seem... strange, at best, if not outright stupid, IMO. I think maybe they are too ****y, or predicting the market wrong, or have brainworms.

Mr. Hunt
04-14-06, 11:50 PM
I don't know about that nowadays... PS2 was difficult to program for and tons of developers complained about it, so they went and made PS3 even more difficult? Star Wars should have been the ultimate MMORPG setting and somehow Sony managed to make it so horrible no one wants to play it? PSP was supposedly more powerful than the PS2 but looks far worse most of the time? Planetside was the only game of its kind and made a huge splash, yet Sony somehow managed to ruin it?

Sometimes Sony's decisions seem... strange, at best, if not outright stupid, IMO. I think maybe they are too ****y, or predicting the market wrong, or have brainworms.

All that stuff and they are still way ahead in the console war.

Mr_LoL
04-15-06, 01:04 AM
I dont think that this would be a handicap on the ps3's ability to play games decently anyway. You are all getting your panties in a bunch.

Bad_Boy
04-15-06, 05:52 AM
Then why is the platform closed? Why was the unit running at 233MHz for so long? Why are the game sales lagging? Why are the movie studios pulling out of UMD? Why is it that the number of "8" and "9" titles on most review sites are pretty sparse? Why do the graphics suck compared to PS2 games when the PSP has the same amount of RAM and more computational power? Why does the PSP suck, and is selling poorly, if SCE knows what they are doing?

I find that you said "SCE isn't stupid" tantamount to hilarity. They sure seem pretty damned stupid these last two years...
-platform closed? you mean like sony not accepting homebrew...oh thats a tough one. O_o

-233mhz, easy, for battery life. but there are ways around that

- game sales lagging? which are you referring to? game sales seem to be doing pretty well, its the umd sales that have been dropping

-movie companies? see above

- 8 and 9's being sparse, same could be said for DS (unless you want to count the 4 versions of nintendogs)
there are many great titles for the psp you probably havent even played or heard of both already out, and upcoming

-graphics suck compared to ps2...lol. are you really that thick?

-PSP is actually doing pretty well besides Japan.
it goes kinda like this
DS by a landslide in Japan.
DS by a razor thin margin in North America.
DS by some kind of margin in Europe.
considering DS has a pretty good release lead in all regions, and the DS lite is killer in japan. Considering PSP is Sonys first handheld, and Nintendo has been in the handheld game since the 80's....psp is doing pretty well. I dont think anyone has come this close to nintendo in the handheld market in a LONG time.

I think SCE can handle themselves. Seems most of you guys are getting your panties in a bunch over nothing. (as mentioned by Allaahu_Akbar) We dont even have all the facts on the PS3 OS and this thread is up to its knees in speculation. Sony has proven themselves with their last two consoles(well i guess that depends on who im talking to, but im meaning with sega, nintendo and microsoft)...so I'm not going to worry about it.


/me waits for e3 :D

|MaguS|
04-15-06, 07:07 AM
I don't know about that nowadays... PS2 was difficult to program for and tons of developers complained about it, so they went and made PS3 even more difficult?

Funny considering most developers that have announced titles for the PS3 have claimed the opposite, that the PS3 while difficult to program for is not nearly as difficulty then the PS2. Heck even with common sense you would know that considering that you needed Assembly knowledge to code for the PS2 while with the PS3 you never need to ever use assembly.

Star Wars should have been the ultimate MMORPG setting and somehow Sony managed to make it so horrible no one wants to play it?
No one wants to play it? Well you better go tell the huge player base that... Oh and get your companies straight before you even comment on them, Thats SOE (Sony Online Entertainment), not SCE (Sony Computer Entertainment) two completly seperate devisions within the company. They have no influence on eachother.

PSP was supposedly more powerful than the PS2 but looks far worse most of the time?
It's called battery life, if you throw too much at the system it needs more juice which right now sony doesn't have a battery that can substain long hours of play and max quality graphics. It also makes the system more future proof since with a simple battery upgrade you can get better graphics later in the systems lifespan.

Planetside was the only game of its kind and made a huge splash, yet Sony somehow managed to ruin it?
Again, wrong company... They have nothing to do with the Playstation devision other then make games for the Playstation.

There are plenty of examples of Sony showing more support to developers and gamers then Nintendo and MS ever have. Look at how many low selling but great titles get sequels? Look how long they support old consoles while other companies just drop them to go do something else. Look at how they allow their internal teams to create unique IPs insted of generic crap constantly. They allow delays to improve on the games (GT3/4 anyone?)...

Sure they hyped the PS2 like no tomorrow but every company did that with their consoles, even Nintendo... Its called marketing, they are in the business to sell consoles and games, not be your best friend. In my eyes Sony has brought me more in the last 16 years then MS or Nintendo ever has (talk about consoles, don't mention MS's PC crap).

slick, Arstechnica is a great site for their own content but this article was not written by them at all. It was written by PS3Portal some small indepented people who have no experiance.

As for me being a PS3/Sony fanboy. Dam right (Will never deny that I am), The PS1 and PS2 in my opinion are the greatest consoles released, even suprasing the SNES. It has all the games I love of the SNES, plus more... The PS2 was an amazing console thanks to the enormous amount of original and exclusive titles available for the system, not to mention the insane amount of RPGs.

Knot3D
04-15-06, 07:34 AM
I read the PS3 OS will NOT take up processing power of regular offline PS3 games.

H3avyM3tal
04-15-06, 08:19 AM
^I find that statment funny - "Star Wars should have been the ultimate MMORPG setting and somehow Sony managed to make it so horrible no one wants to play it? PSP was supposedly more powerful than the PS2 but looks far worse most of the time? Planetside was the only game of its kind and made a huge splash, yet Sony somehow managed to ruin it?"

So you know for a fact that if sony would have not made some decisions, all of these games would have been alot better? Would have been any good?

It's like saying Doom3 was supposed to be alot more than "a first time through is fun, but it gets old really fast...". Saying what if is somewhat counterproductive in this business I think, as saying it and than looking at actually what you can do and what you have will cause one of two things:

A hype that lots of people will like, and a hype that lots of people will hate. And well, thats exactly what we got here.

Lets say for a second there, that this article is right. BUT, lets say for a second there, that you go to E3, and you see MGS4, along with lota of other ps3 related stuff going on, and it looks good. It works. And it looks good.
So whats wrong? You don't like sony's hype? good for you. You don't care for sony's hype? good for you too.

You still got some of the best games around on that 'aweful' ps2, and so you will get the same thing on the ps3, whether its as powerful as they said it to be or not.

You just have to wait for E3 to descide about your opinion, until than, well, this is just consloe flame wars...

a12ctic
04-17-06, 08:18 PM
Please, anybody running windows cant call any OS bloated

Bad_Boy
04-17-06, 11:33 PM
Please, anybody running windows cant call any OS bloated
unfortunately true.

slick
04-17-06, 11:44 PM
Anyone that gets a superiority complex because they run Linux can't talk about OS's.

Bad_Boy
04-17-06, 11:53 PM
Anyways, I hope the voicechat/eyetoy "2" is avaliable at launch. If there is anything I dislike sony for, its hyping up an accessory or feature and not coming out with it for months later after launch.

I have alot of friends across state lines in other colleges that will most likely get ps3's. So im pretty excited about the new hd eyetoy.

I'll try to be optimistic for it though, they said at GDC the service will be available at launch and the service includes video chat...soooo we will see.