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withmyshadow
04-30-06, 12:31 PM
what kind of LCD response time is good enough for fast gaming and 720p HDTV?
my samsung has 12ms response time. that's good for 30fps but on the border of 60fps. but 60fps is only needed for interlaced monitors i.e. CRT while LCD is like movies i.e. 25-30 is good enough. so why do people still need 60 fps for their games on LCD? is it because they need an average of 60 so the minimum is above 30?
and there's the confusions regarding 720p HDTVs.
I am considering getting a 26" sharp LCD tv with response time of 12ms, too.
720p needs 30 fps unlike 1080i needing 60. so 12ms is good enough, isn't it? is it good for sports programs? like a flying football or a race car or something?
these things have finally fallen into my price range.

|MaguS|
04-30-06, 12:35 PM
Not everyone has the same acceptable tolerance to response times, I for one am horrible. I swear that I see ghosting on my friends 8ms LCD even though he says its fine but then again I love CRTs and will probably never stop using them.

But usually 16ms is the turning point with 12ms being better and then just moving down the line. Thing is that even low response time LCD Monitors can display ghosting.

Daneel Olivaw
04-30-06, 04:11 PM
And some HI quality LCDs >16ms don't show any ghosting. My 8ms shows some in UT2K4.

Its really a 'you have to try it to know' sort of thing.

And you get what you pay for too :)

(unless you buy at Best Buy in Canada where everything is way overpriced)

Baracade980
04-30-06, 04:32 PM
Monitors are really one of those things where you should 'try before you buy'.

I have a 12ms and I only see a bit of ghosting. 8ms, I still see some slight ghosting. But, some people see it better than others. My friend says he can't see any ghosting at 8ms. I think the only way to be sure you get a minimum amount of ghosting is to:

a) go and try the monitor
or
b) look at the specs and make sure that the response time is so insanely low that it ghosting is very unlikely to be noticed.

I've looked at a couple low ms times monitors (2ms and 4ms) at best buy... are they nice, but expensive (and they're computer monitors, not meant for direct TV hookup). It depends how serious you are about it. I bet 8ms will be fine. Most HDTV monitors I believe are over that, so a monitor with 8 will probably do just fine.

The frame rate thing with interlaced and progressive I think won't be much of an issue on most LCD's, considering most only go up to 720p (as far as I've seen) and, depending on the gaming you're considering, I think 360 and PS3 at least have 720p native res. (I've seen 360 on a Samsung LCD 8ms monitor at work, and the ghosting, if any, is negligable).

Just do what Daneel said, "try it to know it"

Daneel Olivaw
04-30-06, 04:38 PM
Monitors are really one of those things where you should 'try before you buy'.

I have a 12ms and I only see a bit of ghosting. 8ms, I still see some slight ghosting. But, some people see it better than others. My friend says he can't see any ghosting at 8ms. I think the only way to be sure you get a minimum amount of ghosting is to:

a) go and try the monitor
or
b) look at the specs and make sure that the response time is so insanely low that it ghosting is very unlikely to be noticed.

I've looked at a couple low ms times monitors (2ms and 4ms) at best buy... are they nice, but expensive (and they're computer monitors, not meant for direct TV hookup). It depends how serious you are about it. I bet 8ms will be fine. Most HDTV monitors I believe are over that, so a monitor with 8 will probably do just fine.

The frame rate thing with interlaced and progressive I think won't be much of an issue on most LCD's, considering most only go up to 720p (as far as I've seen) and, depending on the gaming you're considering, I think 360 and PS3 at least have 720p native res. (I've seen 360 on a Samsung LCD 8ms monitor at work, and the ghosting, if any, is negligable).

Just do what Daneel said, "try it to know it"
True, and something else about quick response time monitors, I'm not a pro, but I'm starting to think that some monitors may sacrifice colour quality (ie Greyish) for quick response times...

AliceCooper
04-30-06, 06:21 PM
Just bought a Samsung 930BF 4ms LCD and it is very nice.

Previously had an LG 1710B 16ms LCD and I could see some ghosting on that.

On new monitor I don't notice any ghosting and DVD playback and games are awesome.

:D

withmyshadow
04-30-06, 08:46 PM
The frame rate thing with interlaced and progressive I think won't be much of an issue on most LCD's, considering most only go up to 720p (as far as I've seen) and, depending on the gaming you're considering, I think 360 and PS3 at least have 720p native res. (I've seen 360 on a Samsung LCD 8ms monitor at work, and the ghosting, if any, is negligable).

Just do what Daneel said, "try it to know it"
but I still don't understand why they need 60 fps for 720p gaming while movies are at 24 fps and they all look better than LCD ;)

Daneel Olivaw
04-30-06, 09:13 PM
Thats because movies aren't really 24FPS, rather each frame is 1/24 of a second of playback. Meaning that each frame shows what happened over that period of time. Whereas in games, frames are only pictures representing a discrete and infinitesimal period of time.

A game frame doesn't carry nearly the same information for the eye as a movie frame, thats why you need a lot more.

withmyshadow
04-30-06, 10:13 PM
thanks for the explaination,
what about a TV frame captured by a video camera?

Darth Rancid
05-01-06, 03:58 AM
Also, a game may actually look fine at 25fps, but if it is a very fast paced game, like Unreal Tournamnet, the controls will feel more responsive and exact at 60fps than they do at 25... also, never forget that it is the lowest dips in performance that will annoy you the mostin a fast paced game... the average tells very far from the whole story...

As hinted by Daneel above, there are, (or at least was), gaming LCDs that sacrificed colour for response time, they had only 6 bits / colour channel, instead of the ordinary 8. (LCD-TVs usually have 10 bits / channel now, maybe monitors do as well?.. I'm not up to date really)...

SLippe
05-01-06, 09:29 AM
I see no ghosting with my 8ms Sceptre, except when I have Transparency AA enabled at Supersampling and even then it's only noticable in NHL 06 when the puck flies thru the air. Other than that, I don't see any ghosting on any other games. Simple rule, the lower the response time, the better, IMHO.

nV`andrew
05-01-06, 09:35 AM
well then i should be fine moving to a 20 inch 8ms widescreen monitor going from a 25ms dell 17 inch, rofl. and hte only ghositng ive ever noticed with this dell is sometimes if you spin super fast in cs, i get it.

withmyshadow
05-01-06, 11:32 AM
the ghosting I get on my samsung 17" with 12ms response time is quite obvious.
when I move the mouse pointer against a white background I see the gray thing after it. in games it really depends on the contrast of the scene.
I am curious to try a 8ms screen. the 1680*1050 w/ 8ms seems to be the new gaming screen this year. drool...

Riptide
05-01-06, 12:11 PM
The best way to see motion blur on an LCD is to face a wall in a game and then strafe back and forth from side to side. Watch the wall. The textures will blur. I've seen this effect even on 8ms LCDs like the Westy monitors and although it's getting close they are still not perfect. There is blur to be found if you look for it.

withmyshadow
05-01-06, 02:14 PM
The best way to see motion blur on an LCD is to face a wall in a game and then strafe back and forth from side to side. Watch the wall. The textures will blur. I've seen this effect even on 8ms LCDs like the Westy monitors and although it's getting close they are still not perfect. There is blur to be found if you look for it.
man that's a stress test.
I don't have a game installed at the moment since I am running linux.
but if I drag the browser window with my mouse from left to right, the the blue bold letters on this page leave a very small trail on the white background. I don't see blurring with graphic logos.

SLippe
05-01-06, 03:12 PM
the ghosting I get on my samsung 17" with 12ms response time is quite obvious.
when I move the mouse pointer against a white background I see the gray thing after it. in games it really depends on the contrast of the scene.
I am curious to try a 8ms screen. the 1680*1050 w/ 8ms seems to be the new gaming screen this year. drool...
Yeah, the white background thing seems to be why NHL 06 shows blurring with the puck and such against the ice surface. Probably why I only noticed it in that game and not others.