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gstanford
05-21-06, 08:58 AM
Superfly, I need you to submit a bug report to nvidia please.

Forceware 84.66, 84.56, 84.37, 87.08 & 87.37 all crash Gothic 1 if you use the console command "zhighqualityrender" in game (and yes this is a command you want to use if you have any sort of decent 3D accelerator available).

To reproduce the crash, install Gothic 1, patch to V1.08J, download the savegame at the link below (very early in the game, nothing special has happened yet to introduce plot bugs etc).
http://rapidshare.de/files/21014416/savegame5.7z.html
Place the save file in the saves folder (it should show up in game in slot 5).
Start the game, loafd the save file.
type "smarvins" to activate the console.
Type "F2" (brings down the console).
type "yh" - the console should autocomplete the zhighqualityrender command (Gothic 1 uses a german keyboard layout, that's why you type "y", not"z" at the beginning).
Press enter and try moving the mouse. The game will crash.

The crash can sometimes generate an error report, sometimes it locks the pc up with the graphics still displayed.

I will test further with the official 84 series release, some of the 81 series and 79.11 (I know 79.11 should work since I have played the game extensively with that driver).

This behaviour occurs on 3 different machines so far whose only similarity is that they feature 6xxx series nvidia 3d cards (1 6800GT, 1 6600GT, 1 6600LE) and Gothic 1 installed on them.

AF/AA/Profile settings make no difference.

It doesn't appear to affect Gothic 2, which has a very similar engine (and uses the same console command).

======================================= UNHANDLED EXCEPTION OCCURED ================================================== ====
======================================= CRASH INFOS: ================================================== ===================
GOTHIC 1.08j, Parser Version: 50
User: GregAdministrator, CPUType: 586, Mem: 2048 MB total, 1426 MB free
Camera: Pos(9150.05664/7778.3374/23367.25), At(-0.523144186/-0.265601993/-0.80979985)
Startup Options:-devmode
=============================================== CALLSTACK : ================================================== ============
001B:00525AF2 (0x0000011C 0x008029E8 0x02C10034 0x00000000) GOTHIC.EXE, zCRndAlphaSortObject_Vob::Draw()+50 byte(s), D:\dev\Gothic\current_work\ZenGin\_Dieter\zBSP.cpp , line 313+41 byte(s)
001B:0073A7E1 (0x008029E8 0x02C2F96C 0x08BAD738 0x00000000) GOTHIC.EXE, zCRnd_D3D::RenderAlphaSortList()+81 byte(s), D:\dev\Gothic\current_work\ZenGin\_Kurt\zRndD3D_Re nder.cpp, line 2222
001B:0060749C (0x0E108A94 0x00000000 0x08BAD738 0x0129FCEC) GOTHIC.EXE, zCWorld::Render()+236 byte(s), D:\dev\Gothic\current_work\ZenGin\_Dieter\zWorld.c pp, line 744
001B:00654A46 (0x00052395 0x0005238C 0x0129FEBC 0x00000000) GOTHIC.EXE, oCGame::Render()+150 byte(s), D:\dev\Gothic\current_work\gothic\_Ulf\oGame.cpp, line 2463
001B:004272AD (0x007F7038 0x0005A388 0x0017016E 0x08BAD738) GOTHIC.EXE, CGameManager::Run()+1245 byte(s), D:\dev\Gothic\current_work\gothic\_Bert\oGameManag er.cpp, line 695+25 byte(s)
001B:006F627B (0x6B636F4C 0x544F475F 0x00434948 0x01AF00B0) GOTHIC.EXE, MainProg()+75 byte(s), D:\dev\Gothic\current_work\gothic\_Ulf\Phoenix.cpp , line 115
001B:00500533 (0x00000C01 0x00000000 0x00000000 0x00000000) GOTHIC.EXE, HandledWinMain()+963 byte(s), D:\dev\Gothic\current_work\ZenGin\_Carsten\zWin32. cpp, line 772

gstanford
05-21-06, 09:44 AM
84.21 (official) = no go.
83.62 = no go.
82.65 = no go.
81.85 = no go.

I uploaded the wrong save file by accident. The game will still crash with the earlier save (just head for the ledge the goblin is on after activating zhighqualityrender), but with this one, it's guaranteed to crash.

http://rapidshare.de/files/21022551/savegame6.7z.html

sniggle
05-21-06, 12:09 PM
Could you please rename the title of this thread? A bug like this in a game as old as this is hardly "nasty". Just maybe include the title of the game in the thread name or something.

gstanford
05-21-06, 12:18 PM
You may not consider it nasty, but I can tell you right now, I prefer the Gothic series over a lot of the eye-candy filled junk that has come out since, and would like to have it working correctly.

sniggle
05-21-06, 01:30 PM
You may not consider it nasty, but I can tell you right now, I prefer the Gothic series over a lot of the eye-candy filled junk that has come out since, and would like to have it working correctly.

I respect that, but my point is that the title of this thread makes it appear as if there is a globally bad issue with these drivers, when the issue only affects one old game using one specific command (which ironically sounds like it enables extra "eye-candy" that you seemingly don't need anyway.) :)

gstanford
05-21-06, 07:33 PM
Sure Gothic is pretty and can be made prettier, however it's also got the brains to backup its looks something most modern games can't claim.

It's pretty amazing just how good gothic can look given that texturing is the exent of its graphical tricks.

|MaguS|
05-22-06, 12:59 AM
Gothic crashes by just loading it... the game is bug ridden and just poorly coded. Have you tested this even on an ATI card? The game's engine could also be incompatible with the newest drivers/cards much like Arx Fatalis...

The Error Msg you posted screams a game issue... When a crash is caused by a driver its usually a BSOD or just a straight CTD.

BTW just to see if this is a serious issue, I tried acouple searches (google is your friend) and so far your the only one who seems to crash in this manner.

squall_leonhart
05-22-06, 01:46 AM
is gothic opengl or direct3D?

if its opengl. its most likely incompatible with opengl2.0


if this is the case. download nhancer 2.0 beta 7 and create a game profile with opengl version set to 1.5 in the compatibility page.

gstanford
05-22-06, 03:34 AM
It's a D3D title (would run just as well in OpenGL though I suspect if the support were there for it).

The crash I'm talking about in this thread is definitely related to driver optimizations. If you don't activate the hiqh quality render toggle via the console the game will run just fine.

There is a couple of other issues - activity in the system tray - such as emails downloading etc will cause flashing corruption in the framebuffer where you would normally see the taskbar icon, but lots of older games suffer that problem.

Also, If you alt-tab out of the game, it will definitely crash. While this is always somewhat risky, I've been able to alt-tab away from the game in the past with earlier drivers.

No, I've never tried the game on an ATi card - I've never owned an ATi card.

squall_leonhart
05-22-06, 03:41 AM
It's a D3D title (would run just as well in OpenGL though I suspect if the support were there for it).

The crash I'm talking about in this thread is definitely related to driver optimizations. If you don't activate the hiqh quality render toggle via the console the game will run just fine.

There is a couple of other issues - activity in the system tray - such as emails downloading etc will cause flashing corruption in the framebuffer where you would normally see the taskbar icon, but lots of older games suffer that problem.

Also, If you alt-tab out of the game, it will definitely crash. While this is always somewhat risky, I've been able to alt-tab away from the game in the past with earlier drivers.

No, I've never tried the game on an ATi card - I've never owned an ATi card.

that system tray thing happens on most games, anytime a tray or program tries to steal focus.

even WLM Messengers new message alert does it.

does this game have a profile in the profile manager. its been known to happen on a rare occasion that SLI profiles can cause problems.

gstanford
05-22-06, 04:12 AM
It doesn't have an nvidia supplied profile, I've created one for it though. This has never caused problems in the past (this is the same install of the game I played through a fair while back without much trouble).

|MaguS|
05-22-06, 04:29 AM
Let me install the game and see if I also get the crash. I dout I will... Im guessing it something other then the driver...

I noticed that theres a patch 1.08K... It claims to fix a crash bug...

EDIT:
No issues here at all... game runs fine.

gstanford
05-22-06, 05:35 AM
Well, I've never heard of the 1.08k patch before now. I'll try it out (bloody stupid place to host a patch though - in the gallery section of an affiliate site...) - one I had already checked for answers before coming here.

You'll note the Gothic FAQ there makes no mention of the latest patch.

Did you try with 1.08J?

|MaguS|
05-22-06, 05:51 AM
I couldn't find it...

gstanford
05-22-06, 06:22 AM
Well, 1.08K has solved nothing for me.

Hardly suprising when you extract the patch; -- the level data isn't patched, the copy protection driver isn't patched, the game exe isn't patched.

The patch adds mod support and replaces the miles sound system files, the eax files and that's about it really.

Still crashes. Yes, I did try starting the game with the Gothicstarter.exe (if you start with gothic.exe, the game reports V1.08J; if you start with gothicstarter.exe, the game reports V1.08K).

The patch cleans up Alt_Tabbing support quite nicely, at least that no longer crashes, you can do anything you like with Gothic going in the background and it won't flinch, more proof IMO this is driver related.

gstanford
05-22-06, 08:10 AM
Not even 79.11 is helping with the crash problem.

At this point I'm going to slip a spare HDD in my second system and do a fresh windows XP original (no service packs) install, and see how that goes.

About the only things that have changed on my main system since I last played the game through are an extra 1 gig of memory (never given me any trouble), upgraded from an XP2400+ to a 3200+, and DX9.0b to DX9.0c

I have found a way to largely work around the problem for anyone interested. You need to replace parts of gothic.ini with with following:


.
.
.
[RENDERER_D3D]

zFogDisabled=0
; ... Disable fog (1) if it makes problems on your graphics-device




[SKY_OUTDOOR]
zDayColor0=116 89 75
zDayColor1=80 90 80
zDayColor2=120 140 180
zDayColor3=120 140 180
[ENGINE]
zDetailTexturesEnabled=1
zSubdivSurfacesEnabled=1
zLevelLODStrength=26000
zVobFarClipZScale=1
zTexCacheOutTimeMSec=480000
zTexCacheSizeMaxBytes=44000000


This will produce a very similar effect to the zhighqualityrender switch. If you do this, please backup gothic.ini first!

|MaguS|
05-22-06, 08:25 AM
Run MEMTEST.

gstanford
05-22-06, 08:46 AM
I already have. No errors. Same for prime95. I can't remember the last time a program crashed on me. This rig is as stable as they get. Windows stays up for weeks at a time, 24/7 operation. The only time I reboot (short of testing for problems) are driver updates and windows updates. Been like that for just on 3 years now.

squall_leonhart
05-23-06, 06:58 PM
try 91.28

gstanford
05-24-06, 06:14 AM
91.28 makes no difference.

|MaguS|
05-24-06, 07:22 AM
Then its your system... sorry dude but there is no way that all the drivers are causing the same issue, especially since it would have probably have been in one of their release notes or atleast discussed by other people on the net.

gstanford
05-24-06, 10:48 AM
The bug won't bite if you don't use the "zhighqualityrender" switch. In some places it still won't bite until you also use the "zfogone" switch also.

I guess I can live with it given the tweaks I made above acheive almost the same detail.

However it's blatantly obvious nVIDIA is doing weird things with the z buffer in its drivers (just watch all the z fighting that happens in the game at a distance).

Now, I have no problems whatsoever with optimizations -- so long as I can disable them when I see fit to do so, and this is definitely a case where I want to do so.

gstanford
04-29-07, 07:33 AM
Sorry for the thread resurrection, but, I'm currently using FW165.01 drivers and I'm very happy to report that under these drivers, Gothic 1, does not crash as described above.

Furthermore Gothic2 does note have a rainbow colored bandline at the horizon if you stand at the docks where you meet your new camp friend and have the zhighqualityrender + zfogzone switches active.

Last but not least, the nvidia demo "Grove" (a GF2 demo showcasing NSR) works under these drivers (it ceased working sometime around FW80.xx also).

So, IMO nvidia's drivers ***were*** at fault (some sort of z ordering/culling tweak for GF6/7 that had to be removed for GF8 would be to blame IMO).

Now, if only nvidia could get around to rendering the aliens in their "Toys" demo the driver would be damn near perfect...