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Xion X2
06-03-06, 04:45 PM
Hey guys. I'd just like to say that I'm very happy with my setup and my 7900GTX. It'll run most any game out there, except Oblivion, at 70+fps even w/ vsync turned on and HDR.

However, I'm a perfectionist, and I'm wanting to future-proof my machine for the next 3-4 years instead of constantly swapping parts in and out of it, which leads me to my main point.

The only complaint I have about my Nvidia setup right now is about the inability to force AA w/ HDR like you can on the 1900XT. I've read a little about it and heard from a few guys how it's hardware-limited w/ Nvidia cards. Although the new 91.28 drivers clean up a lot of jaggies (we're talking 30-35 % improvement from before, so it's significant), when I look off in the distance there is still flickering all over the place that is begging for some AA at 1280x1024 resolution when I play Oblivion (it's especially prevalent inside towns).

Alright, my concern is this. I'm thinking seriously about going w/ an SLi setup and putting another 7900GTX in my comp. However, if I spend that much money I want games to look and run perfect for a good while, and if I'll never be able to run any sort of AA on future games then this worries me. Most future titles will have HDR enabled, and I can't live without it.

Is there any sort of AA that is allowed while HDR is enabled if you have an SLi setup? I know they have some extra AA options for SLi that I don't have right now with a single card setup.

If there will never be an AA + HDR option for me, then what about the 7950GX2 that's fixing to hit the market? Can it do it?

Thanks for any feedback you can give me. I would especially be appreciative of responses from guys/gals who have 1600x1200 res monitors and are running games w/ HDR and no AA enabled. Do you still have jaggies off in the distance when playing games like Oblivion where you can see far off in the distance? Textures up close aren't too bad, but there is lots of flickering in the distance.

Death to all jaggies. I hate them. I want to be rid of them. Help me! :D

coldpower27
06-03-06, 04:49 PM
No unfortunate not for Oblivion, if you want to HDR + AA this badly you will have to go the ATI route or wait for the Geforce 8 Series of video cards.

SH64
06-03-06, 04:53 PM
I'm very happy with my setup and my 7900GTX. It'll run most any game out there, except Oblivion, at 70+fps even w/ vsync turned on and HDR.


:wtf: .. what settings do you play your games at ??

as for an answer to your question : No . your best solution is to increase the res for less jaggies.
personally , even @1600x1200,noAA the jaggies pain is still there but its better thats nothing!

Rollo
06-03-06, 05:29 PM
No unfortunate not for Oblivion, if you want to HDR + AA this badly you will have to go the ATI route or wait for the Geforce 8 Series of video cards.

QFT

I have it straight from nV, "No EXR HDR +AA till G80".

On the other hand, what use is it now?

Far Cry- played it two years ago, with HDR. Going to play it again to add AA? Nope.

Serious Sam2- played it all the way through when it came out. Can honestly say no amount of HDR+AA is going to make toy rhinos, green football players, and silly looking clowns "realistic". The game looks like a ten year old's fever dream.

Oblivion- the unsupported patch. This game does indeed look good with HDR+AA, but the performance of HDR+AA is so low you can't play the outdoor areas (where it really matters) at a decent resoultion anyway.

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/sapphire_radeon_x1900_gt/page11.asp

If you're getting a lowly 25fps average with a X1900XT/FX57 at 16X12 0X8X HDR, you sure you really WANT to get closer to the ZERO fps average?

This pretty much leaves every LCD owner in the world out of the equation- who has a 12X10 LCD and $400-$500 video cards?! What do you think HDR+AA runs on a 19X12 LCD like mine? 8fps average?

Anyway- you see what mean-
HDR+AA, not quite ready for primetime.

SH64
06-03-06, 05:51 PM
If you're getting a lowly 25fps average with a X1900XT/FX57 at 16X12 0X8X HDR, you sure you really WANT to get closer to the ZERO fps average?

This pretty much leaves every LCD owner in the world out of the equation- who has a 12X10 LCD and $400-$500 video cards?! What do you think HDR+AA runs on a 19X12 LCD like mine? 8fps average?

Anyway- you see what mean-
HDR+AA, not quite ready for primetime.

First good to see you back Rollo! :)

just to comment , with a X1900XTX + FX-55 i can play Oblivion @1280x1024,4xAA,8xAF,HDR,max in-game settings with a quite nice framerate avaraging between 30-35fps outdoors . thats not bad .. not bad at all!
all/most other places where framerate gets lower than that are actually CPU limited.

Rollo
06-03-06, 06:21 PM
First good to see you back Rollo! :)

just to comment , with a X1900XTX + FX-55 i can play Oblivion @1280x1024,4xAA,8xAF,HDR,max in-game settings with a quite nice framerate avaraging between 30-35fps outdoors . thats not bad .. not bad at all!
all/most other places where framerate gets lower than that are actually CPU limited.

I'm like a bad penny.....
;)

Seriously though, yep, agree that if your monitor can do 12X10 without distortion or big sacrifice of screen real estate, Oblivion with HDR+AA is a good thing to have.

However, what's my 2405 going to look like at 12X10? Or a 2005? Or any 16X12 LCD?

That's all I was trying to say- an old game, a lame game, and a great game IF you have a 12X10 LCD, or a CRT monitor, doesn't exactly put EXR HDR+AA in the top five reasons to buy a video card. (IMHO)

I also think for the upcoming games like Unreal3 and Crysis, X1900 performance will have the same limitations. (low res, low fps- and in those games, you won't want 35-40fps, you'll want 60)

Xion X2
06-03-06, 06:42 PM
Actually, these high-end cards (X1900XT and 7900GTX) can play Oblivion at pretty good frame rates. I can't force AA in my control panel, but it's built into the 91.28 drivers like I said, and I'm running HDR, 1280 res, all settings maxed and I'm getting an average of 50FPS on the outdoor environments on Oblivion using the DXTweaker that enables triple-buffering in D3D. My only complaint is that occasionally my frames will drop down to around 30 in heavily forested areas or inside towns when a lot of characters are on the screen.

My buddy with the 1900XT and Athlon 4000+--well his setup never drops below 30FPS on Oblivion and he's running 4xAA + HDR. So, I disagree somewhat that HDR + AA is a meager feature right now; I think it kicks azz, personally, and I'm slightly bothered by the fact that I cannot do it like he can.

Also, I mentioned before that I'm probably going SLi in the near future, which would mean I'll have plenty of power to push 1600 res + HDR + AA(if my vid card supported it.) 7900GTX SLi setups get on average 60+ fps on the outside environments in Oblivion w/ a good CPU like I have.

FearMeAll
06-03-06, 06:47 PM
Actually, these high-end cards (X1900XT and 7900GTX) can play Oblivion at pretty good frame rates. I can't force AA in my control panel, but it's built into the 91.28 drivers like I said, and I'm running HDR, 1280 res, all settings maxed and I'm getting an average of 50FPS on the outdoor environments on Oblivion using the DXTweaker that enables triple-buffering in D3D. My only complaint is that occasionally my frames will drop down to around 30 in heavily forested areas or inside towns when a lot of characters are on the screen.

My buddy with the 1900XT and Athlon 4000+--well his setup never drops below 30FPS on Oblivion and he's running 4xAA + HDR. So, I disagree somewhat that HDR + AA is a meager feature right now; I think it kicks azz, personally, and I'm slightly bothered by the fact that I cannot do it like he can.

Also, I mentioned before that I'm probably going SLi in the near future, which would mean I'll have plenty of power to push 1600 res + HDR + AA(if my vid card supported it.) 7900GTX SLi setups get on average 60+ fps on the outside environments in Oblivion w/ a good CPU like I have.
I have the same drivers as you and I do not see FSAA in Oblivion with HDR on. That has got to be BS since it is impossible with 7 series cards. Got a screenshot

Xion X2
06-03-06, 06:48 PM
.. what settings do you play your games at ??

Maximum. I just downloaded the Half-Life 2 Lost Coast demo the other day and did a stress-test at 4xAA and in-game HDR setting it has. 70FPS.

I got 60FPS w/ maximum settings on F.E.A.R. (including soft-shadows on) on the stress-test, but when I'm playing the game it hovers around 65-75 most of the time and has never dropped below 35 FPS at any point in the game.

Keep in mind that I'm running the DXTweaker w/ triple-buffering in D3D option turned on, and it makes a HUGE difference. Before that, my FPS would drop from 75--> 38 in a heartbeat. DXTweaker is a godsend.

Xion X2
06-03-06, 06:49 PM
have the same drivers as you and I do not see FSAA in Oblivion with HDR on. That has got to be BS since it is impossible with 7 series cards. Got a screenshot

Are you kidding? I went from the 84.56 drivers to the 91.28 and it cleaned that game up incredibly. There were jaggies all over everything before I downloaded that driver.

I'll try to post some screenshots if someone can tell me a good web host to use.

Xion X2
06-03-06, 06:52 PM
Here's the link to the ForceWare 91.28 thread where lots of guys are talking about it cleaning up a lot of jaggies:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=70598

(You may have read it already, just FYI)

SH64
06-03-06, 06:56 PM
Are you kidding? I went from the 84.56 drivers to the 91.28 and it cleaned that game up incredibly. There were jaggies all over everything before I downloaded that driver.

I'll try to post some screenshots if someone can tell me a good web host to use.
www.imageshack.us

i'm interested on those screenshots for AA+HDR for nvidia cards in Oblivion !
a before/after screenshots will be great!

Xion X2
06-03-06, 07:04 PM
Not possible to do a "before" shot unless I uninstall my drivers and I'm not willing to do that.

Give me a few minutes though and I'll take some snapshots w/ FRAPS and post them.

SH64
06-03-06, 07:07 PM
Not possible to do a "before" shot unless I uninstall my drivers and I'm not willing to do that.

You wont need to uninstall anything. if AA is working when you force it as you said , you can just disable it (from CP) & take a screenshot to see the difference.

Rollo
06-03-06, 07:15 PM
My buddy with the 1900XT and Athlon 4000+--well his setup never drops below 30FPS on Oblivion and he's running 4xAA + HDR. So, I disagree somewhat that HDR + AA is a meager feature right now; I think it kicks azz, personally, and I'm slightly bothered by the fact that I cannot do it like he can.



This doesn't really change anything I said though- he's obviously running at 12x10 lower.

You can't run 12X10 or lower on my monitor (DELL 2405 WS) without looking at huge black bars as half your screen space goes unused, or image distortion trying to scale down the res from the native 19X12.

If you've got a 20" WS, same deal, with added insult of the running it 12X10 is the equivalent of a 17" monitor height wise.

I don't even want to think about the 16X12 20" and 21" LCD crew.

So your friend is apparently running the game at 12X10 on a CRT, or old 19" LCD.
It might bother YOU that you can't do that, but those are the ways of yesteryear, and I'd take a WS monitor, decent res, AA/AF over HDR at Voodoo3 resolutions and screens anyday. (personal preference)

I have a 22" CRT, so I can run 12X10 if need be, but I try to stay far above that.

Please take no offense, I'm not trying to slam old monitors, I'm just saying that's pretty much what HDR+AA in Oblivion limits you too. (except with Crossfire, and that's a whole other debate):)

Xion X2
06-03-06, 07:22 PM
SH64--I never said I was "forcing AA." I said the 91.28 drivers cleaned up a lot of jaggies so it's like you're able to run it + HDR at the same time. It's like it's built into the driver and cleans up the jaggies considerably from previous drivers.

It's not something I can disable. It's a driver issue.

HDR, no AA enabled on control panel or in-game (of course)

http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion20060528160309676mo.jpg

Xion X2
06-03-06, 07:28 PM
Another:

http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion20060528160302149qk.jpg

SH64
06-03-06, 07:30 PM
Hmm that shot clearly has no AA applied.

i still dont see how can drivers "clean up jaggies" without applying AA :confused:
do you mean the new 9x drivers use some alternative way to smooth up texture edges ??

either ways the jaggies are still clear in the screenshot you posted.
EDIT : same goes for the 2nd shot.

Xion X2
06-03-06, 07:31 PM
http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion20060528160901154dk.jpg

http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion20060528160901154dk.jpg

Xion X2
06-03-06, 07:34 PM
i still dont see how can drivers "clean up jaggies" without applying AA

I don't know, but they did it.

do you mean the new 9x drivers uses some alternate way to smooth up texture edges ??

I mean exactly what I said--that it got rid of a lot of jaggies/aliasing on edges of textures and middle of textures. I get a lot less aliasing/flickering than I got on all previous drivers I had installed prior to these.

either ways the jaggies are still clear in the screenshot you posted.

Geesh, you're even picker than I am, sounds like. All the textures that are up close are about as clean as you can get, what bothers me is textures in the distance are aliasing a little.

SH64
06-03-06, 07:37 PM
Geesh, you're even picker than I am, sounds like. All the textures that are up close are about as clean as you can get, what bothers me is textures in the distance are aliasing a little.

Dunno i'm not that picky! .. i'll wait for someone else to comment on the screenshots then! :)

Xion X2
06-03-06, 07:46 PM
It might bother YOU that you can't do that, but those are the ways of yesteryear, and I'd take a WS monitor, decent res, AA/AF over HDR at Voodoo3 resolutions and screens anyday. (personal preference)

But why not allow both? AA and HDR are such kickazz features that it would fit two crowds: those who have high-end cards and 1280 res capable monitors who can still run games at good frame rates with both enabled (like my friend can and I could) or those who have 1600 res monitors and two card setups.

High-end SLi setups get very good frame rates at 1600 res from the benchmarks I've seen.

ViN86
06-03-06, 07:50 PM
i hate to tell you this, but if you want to future proof your PC for 3-4 yrs, you need a DirectX10 compatible vid card with HDCP :o

Richteralan
06-03-06, 07:54 PM
I can't see any AA or "reduced jaggies" in the screenshots.

Placebo effect?

Xion X2
06-03-06, 08:13 PM
can't see any AA or "reduced jaggies" in the screenshots. Placebo effect?

Whatever. It's not the "placebo effect"; I played 10+ hours of Oblivion before installing the new driver, so I know good and well what the game looked like before with HDR and no AA enabled. I do have to say it doesn't surprise me that the two guys who are being jerks about this own ATi 1900XT's. If it makes you feel better to rip on your competition, then be my guest. I think it's kind of pathetic and you won't see me on an ATi board any time soon.