How much do developers pay for dev kits

[dwhjr77]

With Xbox360, and Ps3 out or coming soon, how much does a dev kit cost from MS and Sony. Do they develop on the console itself or do they do stuff on pc and "transfer" it to the platforms? Just curious.

[|MaguS|]

A Dev Kit is basically a console that allows you to run unsigned code aswell as many debug features. It also includes tools (software) for developers to use.

Most programming is done on normal PCs and then compiled and uploaded (not burned) to the Devkit.

Prices usually range in the 50K mark (per unit) for MS and Sony kits while Nintendo usually is cheaper. Mind you that they aren't buying thousands of these per studio... its more like 2 or so per title since most work is done on a normal windows based PC (PS2 and PS3 were also able to be done in linux).

[Zelda_fan]

A Dev Kit is basically a console that allows you to run unsigned code aswell as many debug features. It also includes tools (software) for developers to use.

Most programming is done on normal PCs and then compiled and uploaded (not burned) to the Devkit.

Prices usually range in the 50K mark (per unit) for MS and Sony kits while Nintendo usually is cheaper. Mind you that they aren't buying thousands of these per studio... its more like 2 or so per title since most work is done on a normal windows based PC (PS2 and PS3 were also able to be done in linux).

so do dev kits come with a sort of emulator that can test code on the PC? How would you test your code if you couldn't run it the moment you compiled it (like on Visual Studio for example)?

[|MaguS|]

so do dev kits come with a sort of emulator that can test code on the PC? How would you test your code if you couldn't run it the moment you compiled it (like on Visual Studio for example)?

For the most part there is an emulator but its not made to be 100% playable, what most do is compile the code and upload the changes to the kit and try it out. Its very quickly done so there isn't a long delay or anything.

Remember unlike coding an entire application yourself on your PC, developers have specific people doing only a portion. So compile times are really small, only issue is that teams must communicate often or issues can be formed (usually things are planned early in the day and that is there set goal).

[|MaguS|]

To add something more

The tools that are provided will compile code for the specific hardware. It can run tests without actually rendering anything for AI, engine and script debuging. To take advantage of key features of platforms the compilers are built to emulate them so you can test for bugs.

Many studios are now getting more kits, I know for PS2 development Tiburon had around a kit per bundle (about 6 PCs together with on directly connected to the Kit). This would allow us to test code out much quicker. With the PS3 we didn't have many in due to them being very early in development at the time (I only saw 2) while with the X360 we had over 10 for a single title.

BTW Most "opimizations" are done using provided libraries and other compiler works. Once a studio learns the hardware they can create their own libraries and tools to quickly compile code for that given hardware.

[Mr_LoL]

Thanks for the info magus. Making games sounds complicated. I could never do it.

[mrrolf]

Devkits cost too much. They do get a bunch of tools to help the debug and optimize but still... 20k for one devkit is quite pricey.

[|MaguS|]

Devkits cost too much. They do get a bunch of tools to help the debug and optimize but still... 20k for one devkit is quite pricey.

You have to rememeber there is alot of tools in the kit... Just look up the PS3 Devkit, they even include UE3 in there for developers to try out (with a discount aswell).

[dwhjr77]

So your saying that a dev studio will have more than 1 dev kit for doing only 1 title? Holy smokes. I thought everything was done on a PC workstation and the studio only used the dev kit to make sure the game ran/worked on the system properly.

$50,000 for a Sony/MS dev kit sounds like a lot!

Another question. If development is done on PC, how is it they can take advantage of stuff like multiple CPU's and Cell?

[|MaguS|]

Another question. If development is done on PC, how is it they can take advantage of stuff like multiple CPU's and Cell?

The compilers and emulators handle this. They also have libraries available for the compilers that do alot of the optimization work, this is a reason why you see games improve so much over a consoles lifetime, the tools are constantly reworked and updated.

Once a developer buys a kit they are provided updates for free.

The cost is not much considering they use the same devkits for other projects once that given project is done. Alot of projects can have work started on it before even recieving a devkit since alot of it can be done on a PC (modeling, art and scripting).

[dwhjr77]

The compilers and emulators handle this. They also have libraries available for the compilers that do alot of the optimization work, this is a reason why you see games improve so much over a consoles lifetime, the tools are constantly reworked and updated.

Once a developer buys a kit they are provided updates for free.

The cost is not much considering they use the same devkits for other projects once that given project is done. Alot of projects can have work started on it before even recieving a devkit since alot of it can be done on a PC (modeling, art and scripting).

Thanks for the info. You're awesome.

[t6_shadow]

Yes thanks for those imforative posts Magus. :) I have always wondered about console game development.

[superklye]

So they have to payfor dev kits in addition to licensing engines, eh? Man...that's rough. The Unreal Engine 2.0 went for like $250,000 plus royalties, didn't it?

[dwhjr77]

So they have to payfor dev kits in addition to licensing engines, eh? Man...that's rough. The Unreal Engine 2.0 went for like $250,000 plus royalties, didn't it?

I think that's how it works. Pay for dev kit, pay for the engine & tools, then I think they have to pay Sony/MS/Nintendo for using their technology via royalties.

Dev's probably make $10-15 a game.

[Zelda_fan]

So they have to payfor dev kits in addition to licensing engines, eh? Man...that's rough. The Unreal Engine 2.0 went for like $250,000 plus royalties, didn't it?

Yeah but console games are gonna sell more than PC games just because it's easier for people to pop in a CD rather than have to go through eveything needed to get PC games working (drivers, installation, etc). So $50,000 isn't that big of a deal if your game sells 20,000 more copies becasue it's on a console.

[|MaguS|]

So they have to payfor dev kits in addition to licensing engines, eh? Man...that's rough. The Unreal Engine 2.0 went for like $250,000 plus royalties, didn't it?

Mind you that when you license an engine its not for a single project... you pay for infinite use of the engine. Theres no royalities when the engine is used aswell, its a flat fee. You do have to pay for updates depending on who the author is (Epic chargers per version update).

The profit from games starts off slow due to the initial cost of development but rises during the consoles life thanks to no longer needing to buy as many devkits and the already owned licenses on hand (Ubisoft didn't pay a licensing fee for every Splinter Cell and R6 title to Epic, only payed for updates after wards which is alot cheaper).

[ENU291]

I bet that is why the gaming industry is currently besieged by mountains of sequels. EA is the biggest abuser of the dreaded sequelitis disease.

[Namrok]

I bet that is why the gaming industry is currently besieged by mountains of sequels. EA is the biggest abuser of the dreaded sequelitis disease.

It's sad really. Any studio owned by EA is forever doomed to make the exact same game, over and over and over again. It sounds like one of the circles of hell. I sort of feel sorry for them. No wonder employee turnover is so high. I'm sure the first Burnout you pound out is really exciting. But by the time they hit Burnout 2010 I'm sure those guys are just weeping in their cubicles, wishing they were allowed to work on something else for once.

[dwhjr77]

It's sad really. Any studio owned by EA is forever doomed to make the exact same game, over and over and over again. It sounds like one of the circles of hell. I sort of feel sorry for them. No wonder employee turnover is so high. I'm sure the first Burnout you pound out is really exciting. But by the time they hit Burnout 2010 I'm sure those guys are just weeping in their cubicles, wishing they were allowed to work on something else for once.

I'm pretty sure the rotate the crews around and just keep a few people at the core of the game.

[Namrok]

I'm pretty sure the rotate the crews around and just keep a few people at the core of the game.

I've heard they rotate managers. I'm not sure about actual talent.

[spoop]

$50k for a devkit? The Wii devkit goes for about $2k I think, or maybe I'm thinking of the DS.

[|MaguS|]

$50k for a devkit? The Wii devkit goes for about $2k I think, or maybe I'm thinking of the DS.

Your thinking DS, Theres now way in hell the Wii devkit costs 2K.

As for EA and crew... They pretty much put you where you will help the best. If your a really good AI coder they will put you in a game that requires your talents more then a sports game. I know I worked on 3 different projects during my time at EA and 5 different systems.

They don't relocate people out of the studio though. So if your studio only does a certain game then unless a new IP is brought in your stuck with that IP. Tuburon was like that untill acouple other IPs were created.

Oh and EA makes constant sequels not because of cost or ease but because they sell well. If the public gets tired of Burnout and it doesn't sell well anymore you wont see them flooding the market anymore... As long as they sell they will create them. I have no love for EA but I also have no hate, they are very smart when it comes to marketing.

Oh and the Madden team really enjoys making Madden games, They do wish they could do more but they don't hate making the football games. Thats mainly because their all football nuts...

[shungokusatsu]

A Dev Kit is basically a console that allows you to run unsigned code aswell as many debug features. It also includes tools (software) for developers to use.

Most programming is done on normal PCs and then compiled and uploaded (not burned) to the Devkit.

Prices usually range in the 50K mark (per unit) for MS and Sony kits while Nintendo usually is cheaper. Mind you that they aren't buying thousands of these per studio... its more like 2 or so per title since most work is done on a normal windows based PC (PS2 and PS3 were also able to be done in linux).
PS3 SDK's run $20,000, MS SDK's run $10-$15,000, Where did you get 50k from?

[|MaguS|]

PS3 SDK's run $20,000, MS SDK's run $10-$15,000, Where did you get 50k from?

Whats what I was told, I don't buy the kits. Where did you get your pricing? The only internet pricing I ever found was estimated values of around 30K.

[shungokusatsu]

Whats what I was told, I don't buy the kits.
Understandable, but there only $20,000 and depending on the dev, yes they do get discounts.