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darkbluesky
08-09-06, 07:29 AM
Hello,

I have reading these forums from some time ago, but surprisingly I have not seen almost any reference to virtual reality gaming (aka 3Dstereo) with Nvidia Geforce cards.

I have been playing in 3D almost from 3-4 years ago, when I discovered it, really I can't go back to flat 3D since then!

I have seen recently the SLI modes working and some benchmarks. It seems a good idea, but I can't think of a better use of two simultaneously working video cards that rendering two frames at same time, and this is just what VR asks for, using of the VR drivers (aka 3Dstereo http://www.nvidia.com/object/3dstereo_91.31).

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Just in case, for these that do not know what it is, it is NOT a kind of surround sound, it is all about using any NVIDIA GeForce to turn the pc in a "holographic" rig an enjoy games (not special ones) like if you were inside. To achieve this the video card must render two frames for each one of the 'normal' (as you play usually) frames. One frame that will be seen only by the left eye (and shows the scene seen from a left position) and another frame that will be seen only by the right eye. These both frames, showed alternatively makes the games come to life, JUST like IMAX 3D, but in your desktop rig and with your own NVIDIA card.

The only matter with this is that the PC needs to render two frames for each one of the 'normal' frames, which reduces framerate, but NOT to the half, as someone of you could think, depending on several factors it can reduce about 30%, for example.

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Returning to my main subject, I can't imagine a better use of SLI that to render these two frames, each one in each card simultaneously and then show them. This would solve definetively the framerate loss, and we would have the same framerate with VR (and SLI) than when gaming without VR mode in a non-SLI rig.

Why this mode is not made as this? In some benchmarks with FS http://www.3dflightsim.com/tests.htm there is no gain at all. I wonder how is programmed the new mode SLI stereo in Nvidia drivers.

I don't know if here is someones with experience on this...┐?

I leave here some VR screenshots of some games. They are intended to be seen with shutter glasses, but they can be seen also with naked eye. They are crosseyed screenshots, to learn to see them you can visit this link http://www.angelfire.com/ca/erker/freeview.html, it is quick and easy.

Please note that the screen with depth (VR) that appears when using cross eye technique is smaller than when seeing it at full screen, and so the virtual effect is weaker. When the virtual image is seen in full screen size the virtual reality effect is astonishing.

CoD2
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/4412/0cod2byg6.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0cod2byg6.jpg) http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2125/0cod2ve6.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0cod2ve6.jpg)

Ages of Empires III
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7136/0aoe3bb8.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0aoe3bb8.jpg)

Doom3
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3489/0doom3axe1.th.jpg (http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0doom3axe1.jpg) http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8502/0doom3bnx6.th.jpg (http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0doom3bnx6.jpg) http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1710/0doom3cmg9.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0doom3cmg9.jpg)

FarCry (1.33)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9697/0fcryov5.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0fcryov5.jpg) http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5625/0fcrybxj1.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0fcrybxj1.jpg) http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6055/0fcrycor1.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0fcrycor1.jpg)

F.E.A.R.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9580/0fearaej2.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0fearaej2.jpg) http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1306/0fearbtf8.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0fearbtf8.jpg)

FS2004
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5677/0fs2004jh9.th.jpg (http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0fs2004jh9.jpg) http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/558/0fs2004bae7.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0fs2004bae7.jpg)

GTR
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6013/0gtraxm8.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0gtraxm8.jpg) http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6557/0gtrbkf6.th.jpg (http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0gtrbkf6.jpg)

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 07:31 AM
Some fews more,

Quake IV
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/5422/0quake4ahz2.th.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0quake4ahz2.jpg) http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6026/0quake4brz3.th.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0quake4brz3.jpg) http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/582/0quake4cks0.th.jpg (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0quake4cks0.jpg)

IL2: Forgotten Battles
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9971/0il2atl9.th.jpg (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0il2atl9.jpg) http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5369/0il2bhn0.th.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0il2bhn0.jpg) http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1864/0il2cwb5.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0il2cwb5.jpg)

Ka-50
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4390/0ka50be3.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0ka50be3.jpg)

LockOn Flamming Cliffs
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/9291/0loauv2.th.jpg (http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0loauv2.jpg) http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1515/0lobdl2.th.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0lobdl2.jpg) http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6302/0locdo7.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0locdo7.jpg) http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1361/0lodis5.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0lodis5.jpg)

Need for Speed: Most Wanted
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/503/0nfsmwamq1.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0nfsmwamq1.jpg) http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5430/0nfsmwbtl6.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0nfsmwbtl6.jpg) http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6100/0nfsmwcqs1.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0nfsmwcqs1.jpg) http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/4332/0nfsmwdpo4.th.jpg (http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0nfsmwdpo4.jpg)

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 07:51 AM
FInally here one from an oldie, showing the 'holodeck' (sorry SW fans!) onboard of Calamari cruiser Defiant,

XWing Alliance
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1096/xwacu0.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xwacu0.jpg)

JigenD
08-09-06, 07:57 AM
I have thought a lot about "VR", ever since it became a buzz word in the early 90's. I've tried traditional VR units on more than one occasion, and I do like it.

What VR specs do you use? Or do you just have 2 monitors and you damage your vision by playing crosseyed all the time?

Plus, The way you're posting, in addition to your post count and effort in the posts, makes it look like you're trying to sell something.

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 08:10 AM
I have thought a lot about "VR", ever since it became a buzz word in the early 90's. I've tried traditional VR units on more than one occasion, and I do like it.

What VR specs do you use? Or do you just have 2 monitors and you damage your vision by playing crosseyed all the time?

Plus, The way you're posting, in addition to your post count and effort in the posts, makes it look like you're trying to sell something.

Ops!. :o You have reason. But I do NOT sell anything at all.

I am simply one of these people that likes so much stereovision with pc games, really I play most of the time with flight simulators, and less, with some FPS. For me, in flight sims, VR is where it shines because it is a close environment.

The cause because I have post this in this way, may be due to the fact that we (people using VR) are very few and official support for it is not as good as with normal gaming, experience sharing is much scarce than when playing normal, etc. (there are some forums like forums.stereovision.net and few more, with few activity)

I enjoy so much playing in VR that I am surprised that so few people is in it. So in a way, we could say that I am trying to "sell" this enjoyment, just in case someone likes it and he/she does not know still about it. :)



About the equipment, I am not using crosseyed for gaming :p instead I use shutter glasses and a single CRT, these glasses are sinchronized with the left and right images, which are shown in the screen alternatively.

Sorry very much if it seemed a commercial ad, nothing farer of my aim.

nutcrackr
08-09-06, 08:15 AM
I'm doing the whole crosseye thing and it looks pretty good, you can see the depth in objects on the screen. Only problem I have is that the hud and mainly the crosshairs mess up my vision, just floating there it looks strange. Does the hud often feel like it's just floating there?
btw thanks for the pics

agentkay
08-09-06, 08:19 AM
Do the latest stereo drivers still support the "colored" 3D stereo mode? You know where you can take cheap paper 3D glasses where one eye is red the other blue. I know its not as good as the real VR glasses but it should still show the 3D effect, shouldn┤t it?

Toss3
08-09-06, 08:21 AM
Wow that's really cool once you get the crosseye-thingie right! :) Some of the pics looked better than others, epecially need for speed. It strains the eyes though a bit, so using glasses would definately help. If I recall correctly the glasses offered on the market now don't perform too well and most often don't even work. But maybe I'm wrong..

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 08:28 AM
I'm doing the whole crosseye thing and it looks pretty good, you can see the depth in objects on the screen. Only problem I have is that the hud and mainly the crosshairs mess up my vision, just floating there it looks strange. Does the hud often feel like it's just floating there?
btw thanks for the pics

The crosshair usually is floating at foreplane and until you are used to it, at the beginning it mess the vision, because, like with the hud, you must change focus between scene and front plane, which is usually nearer from the eyes than the scene.

Usually I turns off the crosshair because the depth of the scene helps me to aim better with the weapon and in addition it is more realistic IMO.

Nevertheless the NVIDIA VR drivers (3dstereo) have some workaround to change the crosshair for one user made or to choose from a list. It works in many games (not in all of them though)

Actually, the hud been in the front plane is "as it should be" :o to avoid confusion with the scene objects, but as you say, at the beginning it mess a bit the vision; after some time the gamer is used to change focus, and the problem disappears.

It is the same situation that when stereo is configured to make things pop-out of the screen.

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 08:41 AM
Do the latest stereo drivers still support the "colored" 3D stereo mode? You know where you can take cheap paper 3D glasses where one eye is red the other blue. I know its not as good as the real VR glasses but it should still show the 3D effect, shouldn┤t it?

Yes. it stills supports anaglyph (colored) stereo mode. i think that it support some other types, and 3d hardware out there.

Airbrushkid
08-09-06, 08:45 AM
Where did you get the screenshot of the KA-50???

MaXThReAT
08-09-06, 09:35 AM
About the equipment, I am not using crosseyed for gaming :p instead I use shutter glasses and a single CRT, these glasses are sinchronized with the left and right images, which are shown in the screen alternatively.

Hey, so what is the mfg of the shutters you use. I've been in to VR for a very long time. I had a pair of shutters and loved them until they stopped working. I'm in the market to buy another set. I've kinda been holding off for the Z-800's if you know HMD you know what they are. They just dropped down to $549 (next bonus there mine). I've already got a TrackIR unit that tracks head movement in games but I miss the Stereo. I've also just recently added the Buttkicker to my setup it's like force feedback for your entire body.
Just about every HMD and shutter set is listed on this site. http://www.stereo3d.com Whatcha got man? I'll be picking up this set (https://edimensional.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=29&osCsid=d91345352d1c94c2165dd4e67621498e) in about a month, only $69.99.

Rakeesh
08-09-06, 10:07 AM
This wouldn't be virtual reality, its just stereoscopy. Virtual reality would involve wearing a headset covering your complete peripheral vision (including eye movement,) the FOV would move around based on your head movements. Each eye has its own screen as well.

It is pretty cool though, I used to have a video card that did this. I personally don't like the shutter method they use though. For one, it doesn't work very well with LCD monitors, which would mean going back to CRT for most people. Two, it essentially cuts your monitor refresh rate in half. Three, the shutters use an LCD method to attempt to cover the image from one eye at a time, but it doesn't fully cover it, which results in being able to see a ghost image of objects that tend to be solid, e.g. text. Plus several games out there have issues with this kind of technology as it basically involves some API hacks.

IMO what would really be nice is to have basically a dual monitor configuration (one for the left eye, one for the right eye,) and then have one of those OLED HUD glasses which would serve as the monitors. Still wouldn't be virtual reality, however it would definitely add a very distinct level of depth and realism to games.

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 10:25 AM
Wow that's really cool once you get the crosseye-thingie right! Some of the pics looked better than others, epecially need for speed. It strains the eyes though a bit, so using glasses would definately help. If I recall correctly the glasses offered on the market now don't perform too well and most often don't even work. But maybe I'm wrong..

Well, I am not sure to what type of problems you refer to, but for me and the people I know there is no problem AFAIK with the glasses for the moment, and I and they used them for some years now...Maybe old models failed...? I don't know.

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 10:27 AM
Where did you get the screenshot of the KA-50???

www.really.ru/eng

Gaco
08-09-06, 10:32 AM
Looks cool, I'd like to experiment a little with it all. Is there any settings for this in the official forceware drivers?

MaXThReAT
08-09-06, 10:34 AM
DUDE, darkbluesky, what shutters are you using???????

Bearclaw
08-09-06, 10:52 AM
This is pretty cool. :D

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 11:22 AM
I would like to complement your comments,

This wouldn't be virtual reality, its just stereoscopy. Virtual reality would involve wearing a headset covering your complete peripheral vision (including eye movement,) the FOV would move around based on your head movements. Each eye has its own screen as well.

Well...maybe. People says VR visors like Z800 are VR, when in reality it is equivalent to the screenshots shown + trackIR head tracker. Even many VR helmets out there says they are Virtual Reality when they not use even stereoscopy...But conceptually I think you are not wrong...;)

It is pretty cool though, I used to have a video card that did this. I personally don't like the shutter method they use though. For one, it doesn't work very well with LCD monitors, which would mean going back to CRT for most people.
Someones claim that works in TFT, but I do not recommend it; it uses another 3d system, that is not as good as the screens you can seen here above. But CRT is not the only option, if you have room and budget you can go for a video projector (there are not expensive ones, but this is another story...)

Two, it essentially cuts your monitor refresh rate in half.
Yes, but what problem is it? At least you like to play at very high resolutions (1600x1200). Todays monitors give 100-120 Hz with most used resolutions. So it remains at 50-60 Hz. This could seem low, but 50 Hz with shutter glasses do not fatigue as 50 Hz without glasses. Actually working at 30 Hz is fatiguing, but not 50 Hz. (At least for most of the people, there are always someone for who it could be tiring though)

Three, the shutters use an LCD method to attempt to cover the image from one eye at a time, but it doesn't fully cover it, which results in being able to see a ghost image of objects that tend to be solid, e.g. text.

In this point you are right about the LCD method being used to block the light, but not that this is the main cause of the ghosting. This ghosting is present only on CRT monitors (not in video projectors) and it is due to the nature of CRT monitors: they work based on phosphor decay time, which is slow expressely (it is CRT technology). When for example, left frame is shown, and then the right one, the phosphor, (which shown the left frame) is still "remembering" some of the left frame, meanwhile the right one is being shown. This causes some ghosting (i.e. double image), although IMHO it is relatively smooth, and only greatly perceptive in areas of big contrast (i.e. white over black, etc). Nevertheless, up to certain point, it is a subjective matter, so each one will see if it can be used to it (up to the point of not seeing it consciously when gaming, like me) or not.

Plus several games out there have issues with this kind of technology as it basically involves some API hacks.
Yes, it is true that some games have issues (some games important issues and someones marginal ones and someones games none).

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 11:32 AM
DUDE, darkbluesky, what shutters are you using???????

Ooops! Sorry I have missed yours. Sorry!

Hey, so what is the mfg of the shutters you use. I've been in to VR for a very long time. I had a pair of shutters and loved them until they stopped working. I'm in the market to buy another set. I've kinda been holding off for the Z-800's if you know HMD you know what they are. They just dropped down to $549 (next bonus there mine). I've already got a TrackIR unit that tracks head movement in games but I miss the Stereo. I've also just recently added the Buttkicker to my setup it's like force feedback for your entire body.
Just about every HMD and shutter set is listed on this site. http://www.stereo3d.com Whatcha got man? I'll be picking up this set in about a month, only $69.99.

I was thinking on Z800 but I prefer video projector. There are some comments on forums.stereovision.net or www.stereo3d.com about them and as they do not cover all vision, and pixel are not all small I would like...I prefer a PJ, but this is just my choice.

Currently I have the glasses you link to, ED ones. They have the 'standard' size of glass, but the few googles that uses bigger glasses are expensive (AFAIK), so I am happy with them. (I was thinking on make some modifications to the googles to make glasses nearer to the eyes, and so increase the 3D FOV, but this is still only an idea)

I have the wired ones and I have not a single issue in several years of continuos use.

FierceDeityLink
08-09-06, 02:07 PM
I have an old set of X3D shutter glasses that used to work quite well (140Hz at 1024x768 would usually have a high enough framerate and is a suitable refresh rate).

I gave it up since it was pretty much a one-trick pony, and games became increasingly demanding to where vertical sync and stereo would become a problem. Maybe I'll dig it out once the Flight Simulator X demo comes out, assuming it even runs at a decent speed...

marqmajere
08-09-06, 02:50 PM
darkbluesky-

What computer hardware are you running these games on and what kind of performance hit are you taking by using the 3D mode?

nemecb
08-09-06, 03:26 PM
That looks pretty sweet. Too bad I don't have a CRT (probably the only time you'll ever hear me say that:)).

The cross eyed thing is kinda freaking me out though. It's creepy how well that works.:eek2:

darkbluesky
08-09-06, 03:42 PM
Looks cool, I'd like to experiment a little with it all. Is there any settings for this in the official forceware drivers?

Actually, exists a nvida 3dstereo complementary driver for the nvidia forceware driver, that adds extra functionality to the normal forceware drivers.

They can be found at nvidia.com, download drivers and then chosing '3DStereo consumer drivers'. The link for the current ones is http://www.nvidia.com/object/3dstereo_91.31

Please note that in order to work, the 3Dstereo drivers must match the forceware normal drivers. First install forcewares then 3dstereo. There is a guide in PDF (last version is 77.77)

You can ask me here or PM what you want, I will try to help you as much as I can ;)

Gaco
08-09-06, 03:45 PM
Actually, exists a nvida 3dstereo complementary driver for the nvidia forceware driver, that adds extra functionality to the normal forceware drivers.

They can be found at nvidia.com, download drivers and then chosing '3DStereo consumer drivers'. The link for the current ones is http://www.nvidia.com/object/3dstereo_91.31

Please note that in order to work, the 3Dstereo drivers must match the forceware normal drivers. First install forcewares then 3dstereo. There is a guide in PDF (last version is 77.77)

You can ask me here or PM what you want, I will try to help you as much as I can ;)

My god... You ARE a salesguy :p

Thanks :D