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DSC
02-12-03, 12:19 PM
No, I'm not leaving the forums here, but I'm not gonna purchase anymore Nvidia based graphics products for the future. I'm extremely disappointed in the way the company has decided to conduct its "damage control" and the constant lies, PR BS and poor, underperforming next-gen products. When Nvidia has tidied up its house and gets something thats actually works, then I may consider them again, MAYBE. But for now, it doesn't seem like they have much innovation or drive that made them successful since 1999-2002.

Nvidia, enough of PR BS. Enough of FUD against competitor's product that actually works and available 6 months before your own stillborn that still ISN'T in stores. Get some real work done, for once. What is the use of "Beyond Vertex &Pixel Shaders 2.0" when your current PS2.0 scores are abysmal.

jnd3
02-12-03, 12:50 PM
Whaddya talkin' about, FUD and PR is the way of all companies! Just the cycle of business, alas. Welcome to technology! :D

For those of us poor schmucks stuck on the back end of the technology curve (say, 6-8 months behind), life is quite good. I put together a great budget system for about $600 sporting a nice AGP8x Ti4200 with 128 MB (and that for under $150). Compared to the GF2 GTS I was running before, it's the bee's knees.

Is ATI still the graphics king? In terms of raw performance, sure. Is the GF FX an underperformer? Definitely. But have I been more satisfied with my Nvidia products than with the ATI products I've owned? Absolutely. So, to each his own! :angel:

Cheers,
JND

creedamd
02-12-03, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by DSC
No, I'm not leaving the forums here, but I'm not gonna purchase anymore Nvidia based graphics products for the future. I'm extremely disappointed in the way the company has decided to conduct its "damage control" and the constant lies, PR BS and poor, underperforming next-gen products. When Nvidia has tidied up its house and gets something thats actually works, then I may consider them again, MAYBE. But for now, it doesn't seem like they have much innovation or drive that made them successful since 1999-2002.

Nvidia, enough of PR BS. Enough of FUD against competitor's product that actually works and available 6 months before your own stillborn that still ISN'T in stores. Get some real work done, for once. What is the use of "Beyond Vertex &Pixel Shaders 2.0" when your current PS2.0 scores are abysmal.

You shouldn't have been attached to one company anyway, competition is your friend. We all make mistakes. Buy another product then check back on the nvidia status when you are ready to upgrade again. I would still look into the nforce2 boards they are doing wonderful.

Fusion
02-12-03, 02:19 PM
I don't enjoy running games without eyecandy on. I believe it is a waste if you are getting insane FPS but your Image Quality looks like crap.

Please explain this, because I just don't buy it.

My MSI Ti4600 runs lovely on all game at 1280x960, and without AA and AF.
So what is soo crap about my image quality ?

Serious Sam 1 & 2
GTA3
Medal of Honor AA
Hitman2
NFS HP2
007 Nightfire
NOLF 2
Mafia
Battlefield 1942
UT 2003

All look and run superb to me, so why would I need to waste money changing to ATI ?

I think this whole IQ thing is totally blown out of proportion.
At weekends, I join a huge LAN with around 20 players (all mates) and 2 have 9700 Pros.
I can tell you that running side by side, to my PC, the only difference I see is the insane frame rates they get. Yet I barely see any visual difference at all. Perhaps the 9700 has a minor visual improvement. But not enough to warrant the IQ posts this forum gets.
My display looks great to me, warm colours, bright whites, black blacks, and no blurring at even 1600x1200.

Uttar
02-12-03, 02:25 PM
The GFFX IQ is lower when using AA ( & Aggressive AF, which forces you to use balanced to have comparable IQ and kill your performance )
When not using that feature, it's pretty much the same.
I'm pretty sure those 9700 Pro users didn't want to use AA because they wanted super high FPS to be able to frag you fifty times per second :)
For things like RPGs, however, it's a lot more important.


Uttar

Fusion
02-12-03, 02:43 PM
I agree that the IQ IS lower, but not as low as some might suggest here. Even with AA and AF.

Like I said, side by side, and using 4xS on mine, and 4x on the 9700. And using UT2003 as a test. The only major difference is the in the fps, and thats quite big.
But the IQ isn't all that much of a difference.

True, the 9700 is better. But many of us had to stare at both screens (Belinea 19" monitors) for quite some time just to see a difference.
And moving, it's even harder. Apart from the 9700 being a lot smoother.
Certainly not enough to warrant me selling my ti4600 and getting a 9700.

p4man2.4
02-12-03, 02:51 PM
the biggest problem i see in this forum is you talk about rumors and then you people start to belive them. for example the geforce fx 5800 ultra being canned, not truth....

"you ARE NOT YOUR AGP SLOT"

Onde Pik
02-12-03, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Fusion

Certainly not enough to warrant me selling my ti4600 and getting a 9700.

I don't think that is the point ppl are making. But upgrading from a lower product like a GF2, buying an ATI card is really a no brainer. If u already have a fast card like the ti4600 I see little reason to upgrade.

creedamd
02-12-03, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by p4man2.4
the biggest problem i see in this forum is you talk about rumors and then you people start to belive them. for example the geforce fx 5800 ultra being canned, not truth....

"you ARE NOT YOUR AGP SLOT"

to state something is not truth means you have proof, where is this proof almighty one?

jnd3
02-12-03, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by p4man2.4
"you ARE NOT YOUR AGP SLOT"
Whew, amen to that, brother! :P

Buy what you like. Sheesh. Image quality is all about subjectivity. Depends on your hardware setup, your monitor type, your monitor cable...lots of variables. If it looks good to you, then Bob's your uncle. Now get out there and play some games! Don't make me send someone over there to force you to have fun! :afro: (only cause the pimp one doesn't work right...)

Cheers,
JND

solofly
02-12-03, 03:47 PM
Leaving nVidia? You poor sucka...;)

Fusion
02-12-03, 06:50 PM
CoWBoY

AA, AF, and all the detail in the world does NOT make a great game.
Great GAMEPLAY is what makes a great game.

Try out some emulators of SNES, Amiga, C64, heck even a Spectrum and witness great gameplay.

believe me it is night and day difference.

Thats just it, I don't believe you.
I use my eyes, and I can only spot minor differences.
To say it's night and day is just fanATIcal talk.

If it was night and day, then it wouldn't take loads of us, all standing around 19" monitors trying to spot the difference.
Heck if it was that easy then my wife could spot it, and even my mates wives who game regulary.
But , like I said, it's better but not by much.

Onde Pik
02-12-03, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Fusion
CoWBoY

AA, AF, and all the detail in the world does NOT make a great game.
Great GAMEPLAY is what makes a great game.

True but I fail to see the relevance. We are are disussing GFX cards here not legacy gaming. And Cowboy is just telling us why he doesnt like the GFFX as opposed to what ATI has to offer. And lets face it, buying one of these very fast cards and not using AA and AF would be pretty damn stupid. And so why wouldnt you chose a product that is cheaper faster and better looking with AF and AA on???


Besides, great detail does add alot of gameplay to games. I too had a C64 back in 86 and I still cherish alot of those games, and still play them sometimes as I bought a C64 2 years ago just for kicks. But if it wasnt because I know the games already I wouldnt care to spend a second of my time on most of them simply cause they look like ****.

Sazar
02-12-03, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by CoWBoY
lol, I will indeed... but I don't play any favortism towards any company still. I am sure Nvidia will deliver what I am talking about sometime, but in the mean time.. I will be enjoying my 9500 Pro.



Thank you Sazar for that insight. I looked up ArtX, I had no idea that ATi just aquired ArtX and provided their label on the GC. :D

Although, I did discover while not designing the chip they did quite a bit of programming for it along with programming Cat drivers for the 9700 Pro that have only gotten better over time.

What do you think is hurting Nvidia more, the software design of their drivers or the hardware?

CB :)

IMO nvidia hardware is brilliant... it does what is required of it very well and delivers good quality visuals @ a high performance level (when not using the nutty PERFORMANCE settings :) )

the thing really hurting nvidia is their PR department... making claims for their hardware that it can't backup...

heck there is so much incorrect info on the internet its not even funny.. there are still people claiming that the ti4600 is FASTER than the 9700pro :rolleyes:

the gf FX is an unbalanced card.. a very good card in all respects but it cannot live up to the hype fueled by the overly-optimistic PR staff @ nvidia... and hence is considered a flop...

all in all it would have had a much better reception IMO if it was ontime and not overclocked... it would have been a very good solution and nvidia could have spent a little more time playing around with the nv35 WHILE tweaking their drivers for the nv30...

thats IMO... :)

what happens now? I dunno... both companies will hopefully be pushed a little by the small fry such as SIS... in terms of costs and technology...

delta chrome MAY turn out to be an interesting part @ the end of the day...

kyleb
02-12-03, 07:13 PM
Fusion, i dont think its fanatic talk at all. i imagine he said the same thing about the voodoo5 when it first broguth fsaa to the table, and then nvidia aswell when it first brought anisotropy. the difference between on and off is a matter of openion for sure, but like creedamd i too think the differnce is very pronounced. the difference in quality between ati and nvidia is not night and day by any means, but the preformace is and ati is leading there, and looking beter while doing it.

randsom
02-12-03, 07:29 PM
but like creedamd i too think the differnce is very pronounced

i agree i went from a ti4600 to a 9700pro, the over all image quality is superior to nvidias, and its way faster

digitalwanderer
02-12-03, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Fusion
True, the 9700 is better. But many of us had to stare at both screens (Belinea 19" monitors) for quite some time just to see a difference.
And moving, it's even harder. Apart from the 9700 being a lot smoother.

For some of us, that "being a lot smoother" is quite enough reason. :)

I still disagree with ya over the IQ quality difference. I can tell one.

Fusion
02-12-03, 08:10 PM
Did I ever say that AA/AF make a game great? No, I didn't.

No , but you said that detail in a game is what is important to you.
Thats fine with me, but I merely pointed out that detail alone doesn't make a great game.
Look at Unreal2 as an example. A dreadful game with no gameplay in there whatsoever. And certainly nothing on it's predecessor.

I said it is a waste to buy a over $200 card and not use all of the features it comes with.

I bought a Ti4600 VIVO for VIVO as well as games.
But just because I don't have the need for AA or AF doesn't make the card a waste.
And I play at 1280x960 because it's a natural PC resolution above 640x480. Everything else uses the wrong aspect ratio, and often makes objects and characters look out of shape.

Ok, in saying that then... Are you looking forward to Doom 3?

Not really. More Deus Ex2

If yes, then why? I hope it isn't the graphics.

They were nice, and better than anything I've yet seen on any system including console.

Could it be the Gameplay? If so, you must have the Alpha?

The alpha sucked. It didn't HAVE any gameplay. Merely a bunch of scripts running, showing off the engine. Although you could 'play' certain levels, there were way too many problems to make any kind of judgement.

Why are so many excited about Doom 3 in you opinion?

My opinion ? Purely graphics alone.
Can you honestly say there will be a game in there somewhere ?
If it can give me the same thrills Doom1 and 2 did, (and they still do using Jdoom) Then it will be a success.

Why do I need to check out emulators? I remember running the Atari, C64, ColecoVision, Nintendo, Sega... yadda yadda yadda and loved even today some of those games.

Who knows :confused: Just thought you might like to see some real gameplay. I'm a retro nut afterall, so I enjoy older games than modern games.

Why do you play at such a high resolution if FPS is what you care most about? Wouldn't 800x600 run much higher FPS?

Where have I said that I care about FPS ?

Image Quality means something to you weather you choose to admit it or not, even on my 19" monitor 1024x768 is optimal screen res for this size and it would yet yeild you more FPS for fraggin'. As for it deciding if a game is great and fun, that is just plain B.S.

The majority of the games you listed have something to do with Image Quality, as some are often used in benchmarks. Although that is not solely what makes them enjoyable.


Not as much as it means to everyone here.
And what is BS about putting gameplay before IQ ? THAT would be pure BS.
Ever used a Voodoo2 ? The IQ sucked on those cards, yet there were some amazing glide games around. Most of which I still play today via glide wrappers. NOT because of better IQ/resolution, but because they were great games.

Shinri Hikari
02-12-03, 09:49 PM
If IQ meant everything to me I would get the 9700, but I am much more interested in stability, gamespeed, gameplay, gametype, and not formating my HDDs. I was going to buy the FX Ultra, but since that is not likely, I will go for the 4200 ti and wait for the next refresh, as my tnt2 vanta is dying. Eye candy has almost never been a concern of mine and i doubt it will be for awhile. I also tend to stick to the games I have already until I have the spare cash and am bored, which isn't often.:cool: :D

Skynet
02-12-03, 10:16 PM
Who ever says that the 9700 is not superior in EVERY way image quality wise to anything Nvidia has out right now is a ****ing crack head moron. GET REAL.

The only people who are claiming that their Nvidia cards have image quality that is "good enough" have not actually seen a 9700 with AA/AF in action. There is no going back after playing games at 1280x960 with all the eye candy maxed out. Everything else looks like total ****. This is not meant to flame anyone who has an Nvidia card because they were good in their time, but Nvidia is far far behind right now when it comes to gaming performance and quality.

Yea I know the GeFX is this, that and the other thing but the ****ing card is not even out now! Excuse me for the flame but all you ****ing lamers who come out blabbing off about how nice games look at high rez without AA/AF are seriously dellusional. WAKE UP.

creedamd
02-12-03, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Skynet
Who ever says that the 9700 is not superior in EVERY way image quality wise to anything Nvidia has out right now is a ****ing crack head moron. GET REAL.

The only people who are claiming that their Nvidia cards have image quality that is "good enough" have not actually seen a 9700 with AA/AF in action. There is no going back after playing games at 1280x960 with all the eye candy maxed out. Everything else looks like total ****. This is not meant to flame anyone who has an Nvidia card because they were good in their time, but Nvidia is far far behind right now when it comes to gaming performance and quality.

Yea I know the GeFX is this, that and the other thing but the ****ing card is not even out now! Excuse me for the flame but all you ****ing lamers who come out blabbing off about how nice games look at high rez without AA/AF are seriously dellusional. WAKE UP.

another one that has seen the light, I took off aa and af tonight and played U2 @1024x768, it totally took the submersion away, to have gameplay the game has to "fool" you into thinking that it is real. Old emulators are ok, but get boring quick. Realism, that's where its at, I have been gaming for 25years. I have had every console and every video card, we are at a landmark my friend.

I was a non believer at first, but I have seen the light, nvidia kicks ass, if they come out with the nv35 that smokes the 9700pro and provides high quality aa and af with excellent performance, I will jump ship again. But for now you will have to pry my 9700pro out of my cold dead hands. Bottom line.

Question is: Is it worth it to go from a 4600 to a 9700pro?

Answer: If you think you are a real gamer ready to go to the next level. Yes.

Fusion
02-13-03, 05:37 AM
Do you use AA/AF or not?
I am not even sure you know what AA or AF are or what they do/QUOTE]

On old games that have a limit of 800x600, I can say that it makes a difference.
And yes, thanks, I know that AA and AF are, jeez :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Who ever says that the 9700 is not superior in EVERY way image quality wise to anything Nvidia has out right now is a ****ing crack head moron. GET REAL.

No, I think the moron in this whole thread is you. None of the other ATI owners had to go off in some fanATIcal rage.

Question is: Is it worth it to go from a 4600 to a 9700pro?
Answer: If you think you are a real gamer ready to go to the next level. Yes.

So I and many other Nvidia owners are now not real gamers, because we don't see the need for a 9700, yeah ?

Thats a wee bit pathetic if you ask me. I've been gaming since around 1976, and myself have owned pretty much all the computers and consoles of this world.
Now I would consider myself a true real gamer, and because I choose not to use AA and AF, that rules me out ?
Thats THE most stupidest thing I've yet seen posted on this entire forum.
What level will the fanATIcs sink to to get users to switch over
:rolleyes:

we are at a landmark my friend.

Yeah, ok. A landmark of sequals, A lack of originality, an idustry where the companies are more interested in your money than in gameplay. Thats a real Landmark we have there.

Retro is back, and is here to stay. People today are fed up with the same tired old crap.
Perhaps people should visit here
http://www.cobd.co.uk/yakfestpage.htm
and learn what real games are like.
Or visit here
http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/forum/index.php
And tell them that it's all about amazing graphics, and not about fun anymore :rolleyes:

creedamd
02-13-03, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Fusion
No, I think the moron in this whole thread is you. None of the other ATI owners had to go off in some fanATIcal rage.



So I and many other Nvidia owners are now not real gamers, because we don't see the need for a 9700, yeah ?

Thats a wee bit pathetic if you ask me. I've been gaming since around 1976, and myself have owned pretty much all the computers and consoles of this world.
Now I would consider myself a true real gamer, and because I choose not to use AA and AF, that rules me out ?
Thats THE most stupidest thing I've yet seen posted on this entire forum.
What level will the fanATIcs sink to to get users to switch over
:rolleyes:



Yeah, ok. A landmark of sequals, A lack of originality, an idustry where the companies are more interested in your money than in gameplay. Thats a real Landmark we have there.

Retro is back, and is here to stay. People today are fed up with the same tired old crap.
Perhaps people should visit here
http://www.cobd.co.uk/yakfestpage.htm
and learn what real games are like.
Or visit here
http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/forum/index.php
And tell them that it's all about amazing graphics, and not about fun anymore :rolleyes:

to each's own dude. I am not trying to get you to switch over, just trying to turn you on to a good thing.

As far a gameplay, I look for both, realism and good gameplay, I am beyond cartoon games. I agree that good gfx don't make a good game, but for my standards for the money that I spend on my computer it better have good gfx and good gameplay.

About the AA and AF, I am sorry man, but to say that you don't wan't it is plain bullheaded. If a driver revision came out for your card that allowed aa and af at high levels. You would be the first one in here saying "w00t, YEAH! atisuxors! Nvidia is da shiz! and all that jazz. I have told you my view on the card. I can assure you I am not a fanboy of no company, I am a fanboy of the 9700pro. Just take my words as data. Don't act upon them, keep them in mind. That 4600 may break one day or you might have a hair and want to try something different. I am not trying to wind you up. Peace.

Kruno
02-13-03, 07:40 AM
Yeh well I am not going to buy another video card until nVidia/Ati incorporate all the features of the R300 and then some more and double the goodness. :)

Unfortunately what I want is like 3-6+ years away. :)

Skynet
02-13-03, 09:19 AM
Thats a wee bit pathetic if you ask me. I've been gaming since around 1976, and myself have owned pretty much all the computers and consoles of this world.
Now I would consider myself a true real gamer, and because I choose not to use AA and AF, that rules me out ?

No it does not rule you out of anything. But it does exclude you from the group of people who are playing games with much improved visuals. If you are not into high-end rendering in games then that is your choice. But believe it or not, the drive to produce hardware that is faster and faster with higher and higher rendering ability is DRIVING the whole graphics industry. If you don't want to be a part of it, that is your loss.

For you to even say that "retro gaming" is back tells me you are beyond desperate. I am not trying to convert anyone, only stating the obvious.