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nekrosoft13
08-13-06, 01:44 PM
Performance to rival that of Direct3D

The problem with OpenGL was that it was never officially supported or evangelized by Microsoft. Of course, Microsoft has always advocated its own Direct3D driver model over OpenGL, but GPU manufacturers have long supported OpenGL in drivers. Many games and productivity applications still use OpenGL even today. With Windows Vista, Microsoft made it clear that OpenGL support would only work as a layer sitting on top of Direct3D. There was going to be translation involved and thus, a performance hit.

This week the Khronos group, which is responsible for developing and maintaining OpenGL, has released a report indicating that OpenGL support will now be natively supported in Vista without layering over Direct3D. Using standard Windows installable client driver (ICD), OpenGL will be fully accelerated and be fully compatible with Windows Vista's Aeroglass UI. In fact, Khronos says that by the time Windows Vista ships, Aeroglass performance on OpenGL will be superior to that of Direct3D. According to Khronos and NVIDIA:

Hardware overlays are not supported
Hardware OpenGL overlays are an obsolete feature on Vista
ATI and NVIDIA strongly recommend using compositing desktop/FBOs for same functionality
However, the OpenGL ICD drivers must still be downloaded and will not ship on the Windows Vista installation disc. Khronos said that NVIDIA already has a beta 2 ICD OpenGL driver available and ATI will release its own soon. If no ICD is present, Windows Vista will rely on the layered OpenGL mode by default and only offer basic functionality.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3760

Peoples-Agent
08-13-06, 03:20 PM
Cheers for the heads up with regards to that driver.
Useful info.

jAkUp
08-13-06, 03:22 PM
Good news for id software :)

Demanufakture
08-13-06, 04:03 PM
Good news for pc gamers period really.(nana2)

grey_1
08-13-06, 05:34 PM
Way cool!

Riptide
08-13-06, 06:20 PM
What's the big deal? There was only going to be a performance hit in windowed mode. Full screen GL apps were never going to need to run over DX.

nekrosoft13
08-13-06, 06:23 PM
What's the big deal? There was only going to be a performance hit in windowed mode. Full screen GL apps were never going to need to run over DX.


wrong

"With Windows Vista, Microsoft made it clear that OpenGL support would only work as a layer sitting on top of Direct3D. There was going to be translation involved and thus, a performance hit."

Riptide
08-13-06, 06:27 PM
I've read elsewhere information that contradicts this. It was only going to be GL apps in windowed mode that ran over D3D. I will try to find a link.

jolle
08-13-06, 06:34 PM
Yeah from what Ive read in the past, the only cripling factor to OpenGL in Vista would be with Windowed applications over the Aero Glass UI.

Riptide
08-13-06, 06:36 PM
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/48409524/m/238008574731
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/48409524/m/403005866731

nukem
08-13-06, 07:03 PM
MS has always been trying to kill OpenGL because its availible on other platforms(thus apps and games can be easily ported to other OSs). MS wants people to use DX because its only on Win and it ties people to them. The problem they have is that there are many games(idsoftware and epic games) and apps(pretty much every CAD program and I think even photoshop), and those games and apps they fear they might lose if they kill OpenGL(epsically with OS X and Linux taking away market share).

jolle
08-13-06, 07:09 PM
Well they can force OpenGL out all they want, but there is prolly still gonna be multiplatform games that use D3d on PC and OpenGL on other platforms, such as WOW and UT series for example, both of which have OpenGL renderers on windows aswell as options..

Riptide
08-13-06, 07:25 PM
How has MS been trying to kill OpenGL? Substantiate that statement please.

jAkUp
08-13-06, 07:56 PM
MS has always been trying to kill OpenGL because its availible on other platforms(thus apps and games can be easily ported to other OSs). MS wants people to use DX because its only on Win and it ties people to them. The problem they have is that there are many games(idsoftware and epic games) and apps(pretty much every CAD program and I think even photoshop), and those games and apps they fear they might lose if they kill OpenGL(epsically with OS X and Linux taking away market share).

Epic games use D3D nowadays.

Really the only OpenGL game anymore is the Doom3 engine. Even Carmack has some interest in DX10, we may see the end of OpenGL based PC Games.

MOTÖRHEAD
08-13-06, 11:06 PM
Epic games use D3D nowadays.

Really the only OpenGL game anymore is the Doom3 engine. Even Carmack has some interest in DX10, we may see the end of OpenGL based PC Games.

What do you think they use for the Sony and Nintendo use on thier current and upcoming consoles ? I doubt they'd be using a stripped down windows OS and dx9 or 10 which they would have to buy a license for and leave themselves at the mercy of MS. On another note outside of gaming OpenGL in the professional world is pretty much the standard that everyone looks towards when it comes to high end profession CGI quality video, rendering and animation.

MOTÖRHEAD
08-13-06, 11:11 PM
How has MS been trying to kill OpenGL? Substantiate that statement please.

One word...Netscape. Sure it has nothing to do with graphics but that is another area which MS did not have to go toward but felt it neccesary to prevent others from pitching a product to their OS consumers that was not theirs. Do you seriously think MS wants OpenGL to win out and replace their standard and potentially allow other competitors an edge to slip in their products over MS's products ?

Riptide
08-13-06, 11:16 PM
Beautiful isn't it? Microsoft produces a free product (IE), packages it with their OS, and people complain about it. Even though they can use any other browser they want with the OS. If MS made it so no other browser would work then I buy that line of thinking. But yet other programs than IE work fine.

Rakeesh
08-13-06, 11:49 PM
Epic games use D3D nowadays.

Really the only OpenGL game anymore is the Doom3 engine. Even Carmack has some interest in DX10, we may see the end of OpenGL based PC Games.

I thought all of epics games had linux ports and thus used both d3d and opengl in windows?

Riptide
08-14-06, 12:01 AM
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/48409524/m/945002250831

Some more interesting conversation on the subject. This thread more recent.

sharangad
08-14-06, 02:36 AM
How has MS been trying to kill OpenGL? Substantiate that statement please.

For instance Win2k and XP offered drivers through Windows Update. These were official nVidia/ATi/Matrox drivers but had OpenGL support removed. Windows Update used to recommend that you updated to these drivers. I tried it once and found OpenGl didn't run or performed badly.

There's a whole history behind OpenGL and Microsoft. Two three years ago Microsoft pulled out of the OpenGL Architecture Review Board, though they were founder members of it. They felt they no longer needed OpenGL for high performance graphics as with DX9 they had a superior system, despite the fact that OpenGL is an industry standard.

nukem
08-14-06, 02:56 AM
On top of what everyone has said about MS and OpenGL I have heard MS is bribing companies to use D3D instead of OpenGL(remember Bungie? A Mac game developer? What do you think they used?). Also many games use OpenGL because so many platforms use it. I said Epic because UT2007 uses OpenGL and infact there has been a native Linux client confirmed. Im no expert in OpenGL or D3D(although I have coded with OGL) and I think OpenGL is better because it offers you to easily change platforms and is on an industry standard, while D3D can offer neither of those things.

Riptide
08-14-06, 02:58 AM
Them at some point offering drivers w/o GL support does not equate out to trying to kill it. If you could still get support from the companies you listed then who cares. Most people that care about GL enough to even know what it is aren't going to MS for a driver in the first place.

Furthermore them pulling out of the board does also not equal to killing GL. They are not doing anything to prevent anyone else from supporting it therefore they are not killing it.

People really just love to hate MS.

D3D isn't an industry standard? My we're grasping @ straws.

K007
08-14-06, 05:38 AM
Use anything..as long as it looks good/fast/smooth -.-. But yea..i think in the past ive only played Doom3 Engine games that use OpenGL..Doom3/RoE/Q4/Prey...and i enjoyed all the games..the engine should be used to make Resident Evil game for PC lol

nukem
08-14-06, 06:29 AM
Them at some point offering drivers w/o GL support does not equate out to trying to kill it. If you could still get support from the companies you listed then who cares. Most people that care about GL enough to even know what it is aren't going to MS for a driver in the first place.

Furthermore them pulling out of the board does also not equal to killing GL. They are not doing anything to prevent anyone else from supporting it therefore they are not killing it.

People really just love to hate MS.

D3D isn't an industry standard? My we're grasping @ straws.

OpenGL is an indusry standard because its not controlled by one company, its controlled by a board. What area besides games is D3D used in? CAD, 3D modeling, and many other areas all use OpenGL even if there app is only for Windows. The reason this is a big deal is because many of those apps use OpenGL in a window and not in full screen mode. MS has been trying to kill OpenGL since the mid 90's. The way they implemented OpenGL it had poor preformance, this is what caused other companies to implement OpenGL correctly on Windows. The fact is MS has always done what ever it takes to get people to use their technology and only their technology.

jolle
08-14-06, 06:58 AM
Alot of 3d apps have D3d9 renderers aswell as OpenGL these days.
Mainly aimed at gamedevelopment I spose where you can have realtime shaders running in the viewport for a WYSIWYG enviroment working on ingame models and such.
But yeah OpenGL is there to stay, things like 2 sided materials in viewports in 3dsMAX seems to work with OpenGL only for example, and I can imagine alot of CAD programs sticking with OpenGL, not really needing d3d.

Multiplatform games will prolly use D3d on Windows and OpenGL on Linux/MAC, but I dont think OpenGL is going anywhere in windows for that matter, even if MS prefers developers to use D3d for games.