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VulcanOrion
02-16-03, 09:56 PM
Hey guys, I am new to the forum here and I have enjoyed reading alot of things here. I have a question though, is the GeForce FX Ultra really in trouble as far as it being taken out of production because it isn't good enough? I have reaf this over and over again. I don't want to buy an ATI 9700pro card...man. I am an nVidea fan but if nVidea keeps this up I may have to change.....but I don't want to... :(

StealthHawk
02-16-03, 10:43 PM
there will be very limited quantities of gfFXUltras shipping. your best bet was the pre-order period.

the real number shipping is not known, and the reports get lower each time.

kyleb
02-17-03, 12:32 AM
what i think they should do is relase an fx asap, even at 400/400 or less just to were it doesnt have to have a giant fan and is an nice card and take a hit on the price if nessacary to be competitive to were people want them. offer preoders of the utrla a special addition of that card or the stadard fx at the new lower price. after all anybody with a gefoce4/8500 doesn't realy need a faster card so it doesn't even have to be the fastest thing on the planet anyway as long as it is still a damn nice card.

then during that time, bin highspeed parts and as the yeilds improve start selling ultras as fast as you can clock them with resonable cooling, hopfeuly just about two moths later. the whole time work hard core on getting low-k done, bump clockspeed respectably and hopefuly get a 256bit bus into the nv30 and make have it on the market in 6 months time with high and low bin chips makeing two product choses with different speed ram as well. i think that is a reasonable goal to plan on pulling off and one that would most likely out pace whatever the r350 does by a respectable margin and set things back on track for nvidia.

also, and most imprtantly, quit it with the "are you ready?" bs and focus on makeing nice videocards. nice videocards sell themselfs, especialy from the largest manufature in the industry.

jAkUp
02-17-03, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by kyleb
also, and most imprtantly, quit it with the "are you ready?" bs and focus on makeing nice videocards. nice videocards sell themselfs, especialy from the largest manufature in the industry.

agreed.

digitalwanderer
02-17-03, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by kyleb
what i think they should do is relase an fx asap, even at 400/400 or less just to were it doesnt have to have a giant fan and is an nice card and take a hit on the price if nessacary to be competitive to were people want them. offer preoders of the utrla a special addition of that card or the stadard fx at the new lower price. after all anybody with a gefoce4/8500 doesn't realy need a faster card so it doesn't even have to be the fastest thing on the planet anyway as long as it is still a damn nice card.

then during that time, bin highspeed parts and as the yeilds improve start selling ultras as fast as you can clock them with resonable cooling, hopfeuly just about two moths later. the whole time work hard core on getting low-k done, bump clockspeed respectably and hopefuly get a 256bit bus into the nv30 and make have it on the market in 6 months time with high and low bin chips makeing two product choses with different speed ram as well. i think that is a reasonable goal to plan on pulling off and one that would most likely out pace whatever the r350 does by a respectable margin and set things back on track for nvidia.

I agree completely, but don't you think they would if they could?!?

I'd like to think that they're bright enough to know this too, I think they're having real problems making the chip. :(

also, and most imprtantly, quit it with the "are you ready?" bs and focus on makeing nice videocards.

NOO!!!!! What, you wanna go and spoil all my fun? :p ;)

kyleb
02-17-03, 03:10 AM
i have no doubt that they can pull that off digitalwanderer, at least as long as i am not missing something like they lost a large chunk of the people that actualy pulled off their previous accomplishments or something extreme like that, and i don't mean the buisness/pr guys i mean the people who actualy make the hardware. unforntaly, best i can tell from the investor call last week and the recent moves they have been makeing i am affraid they are not going anywere near the plan i oultined above, it just doesn't seem like their current mentality with constant change of plans on the fx. regardless, it will be realy interesting to see how things progress though this year. i am crossing my fingers powervr and sis make good turnouts with their dx9 midrage parts as that would surely lead to beter things, things cool get realy exciting in the industry soon.

Kruno
02-17-03, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Captain Beige
loyal to nvidia despite the 9700 pro being the best card available and can't even spell their name - one word for that - NVIDIOTCY

Depends on the persons opinion about what the best card is. :)

silence
02-17-03, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by Captain Beige
loyal to nvidia despite the 9700 pro being the best card available and can't even spell their name - one word for that - NVIDIOTCY

another pointless flaming.......why can't a guy just come here and ask for our opinion without being attacked by some1 who has personal grudge with nvidia........

i have been using nvidia's products for over 4 years now and i am more then satisfied with them......just like VulcanOrion i came here trying to getmore info on product's thet served me well and as soon as you even dare to say you consider buying another nvidia card there is some idiot like this.......

i know r300 is great card.......and now i have to think.........should i go for product on which i don't know much or to go with something thet never let me down before........and this is where nvidia is strong.......

it's easy to sell product once for low cost......ppl buy them........but if ur product suck ppl won't buy them again.......all uptill now nvidia had great products and ppl are simply used to buy their stuff.........

next time try to point what's so good about r300 and help instead doing thet dumb NVIDIOT thing cause thet shows only one idiot....one without nv

Nutty
02-17-03, 08:27 AM
Well said Silence!

VulcanOrion
02-17-03, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Captain Beige
loyal to nvidia despite the 9700 pro being the best card available and can't even spell their name - one word for that - NVIDIOTCY

I musta really hurt your feelings there buddy........Listen, I didn't come here to argue pointless issues. I am a tech. head like many of you here but if for some reason you don't like what I said then don't read it...it's that simple and about my spelling......WHO cares man. Mistakes happen......***** happens.....I think you need to settle down bud. The world will be a much better place for ya if ya did :)

VulcanOrion
02-17-03, 08:32 AM
.........Although I do feel a little dumb about mis-spelling nVidia :p OPPS!

:afro2:

Onde Pik
02-17-03, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by silence
another pointless flaming.......why can't a guy just come here and ask for our opinion without being attacked by some1 who has personal grudge with nvidia........

i have been using nvidia's products for over 4 years now and i am more then satisfied with them......just like VulcanOrion i came here trying to getmore info on product's thet served me well and as soon as you even dare to say you consider buying another nvidia card there is some idiot like this.......

i know r300 is great card.......and now i have to think.........should i go for product on which i don't know much or to go with something thet never let me down before........and this is where nvidia is strong.......

it's easy to sell product once for low cost......ppl buy them........but if ur product suck ppl won't buy them again.......all uptill now nvidia had great products and ppl are simply used to buy their stuff.........

next time try to point what's so good about r300 and help instead doing thet dumb NVIDIOT thing cause thet shows only one idiot....one without nv


Living in the past ist stupid IMHO. There have been countless reviews of the R9700PRO and none have experienced any problems, thats not something u can say for GFFX, GF3, GF or any other new chip from Nvidia (or ATI for that matter). The R9700P is well documented as a very good card in all respects, so just because nvidia has treated you good before is not a good reason to by a card that you know isnt worth the money. That is not playing it safe

But go ahead and buy the GFFX, but don't try to tell us you do it for any other reason than brand loyalty. Which is lame IMHO.

Sazar
02-17-03, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by kyleb
what i think they should do is relase an fx asap, even at 400/400 or less just to were it doesnt have to have a giant fan and is an nice card and take a hit on the price if nessacary to be competitive to were people want them. offer preoders of the utrla a special addition of that card or the stadard fx at the new lower price. after all anybody with a gefoce4/8500 doesn't realy need a faster card so it doesn't even have to be the fastest thing on the planet anyway as long as it is still a damn nice card.

then during that time, bin highspeed parts and as the yeilds improve start selling ultras as fast as you can clock them with resonable cooling, hopfeuly just about two moths later. the whole time work hard core on getting low-k done, bump clockspeed respectably and hopefuly get a 256bit bus into the nv30 and make have it on the market in 6 months time with high and low bin chips makeing two product choses with different speed ram as well. i think that is a reasonable goal to plan on pulling off and one that would most likely out pace whatever the r350 does by a respectable margin and set things back on track for nvidia.

also, and most imprtantly, quit it with the "are you ready?" bs and focus on makeing nice videocards. nice videocards sell themselfs, especialy from the largest manufature in the industry.

a company which depends a fair amount on stock holder confidence can't afford to under-write the costs of a video card... well it could but I dunno what the shareholders would think...

if I had invested money in a company and the company was using that money to sell cards under-priced on the market... I would not be very happy.. specially given the history thus far and the problems with the gf FX... however.. having listened to the nvidia conference call in its entirety :) I am sure that a positive spin by those ever active PR merchants @ nvidia would find a way to placate the investors who seem to have NO IDEA or even CARE about the actual companies products... the ceo's word apparently is enough :)

digitalwanderer
02-17-03, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Onde Pik
Living in the past ist stupid IMHO. There have been countless reviews of the R9700PRO and none have experienced any problems, thats not something u can say for GFFX, GF3, GF or any other new chip from Nvidia (or ATI for that matter). The R9700P is well documented as a very good card in all respects, so just because nvidia has treated you good before is not a good reason to by a card that you know isnt worth the money. That is not playing it safe

But go ahead and buy the GFFX, but don't try to tell us you do it for any other reason than brand loyalty. Which is lame IMHO.

All respects and props to ya Onde since I consider ya a buddy and all, but I'll respectfully disagree here. Yes the 9700 is getting stellar reviews pretty much across the board, but the same could be argued for the 8500. It didn't get quite the raving reviews, but I remember quite a few sites pimping it as "ATI's new begining"...

...it wasn't, it isn't; I still think the 8500 has some real basic design issues and is the last of the 'lame ATI' cards. (Well, I count the 9100 & 9000 in there too. ;) )

The 95/9700 series, however, IS a different ATI. Really, truly; honest. I really swore I wouldn't spend another penny on an ATI card after my 8500 since I was just burned one time too many by their damned PR division (and I only paid $70us for my retail 8500 that I'm so un-pleased with) and they really did hear about that and offered me the 9500 Pro to play with for a few weeks.

They REALLY have changed, and this card really delivers on all the hype!

I started out an ATI guy, I turned into an nVidia freak with my GF2, by the time I got the GF3 & 8500 I'd finally learned that the brand name don't mean squat as much as the current product does.

My advice to VulcanOrion right now would be to give the 9700 Pro a try. IMHO it really is the best card out right now, 'specially considering no one really knows when the FX will be out or what exactly it will be then. If you can hold off a couple of weeks on buying a card I would really try and do that since there's going to be a massive price shift right after the E3 shows. (When are they? Anyone know? I'm too lazy to look 'em up. ) I think the FX is going to REALLY premiere at E3, and I think the 9900 will also be premiered and will be immedietly available right after. :)

(See? I can SO post without flaming! :p )

Harnagel
02-17-03, 12:56 PM
I am going to wait and see what the nv35 is like. If at that time things aren't looking up then I'll be looking around to other companies. Fortunately I won't be upgrading till at least then anyways.

btw: the thread is NVIDIA what's next for THEM! Nowhere does it even ask about ATI, even if they do sell the fastest card, and even if it does get raving reviews. You would think that people wouldn't find it necessary to start a flame war in every thread.

Gabrielx
02-17-03, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Harnagel
btw: the thread is NVIDIA what's next for THEM! Nowhere does it even ask about ATI, even if they do sell the fastest card, and even if it does get raving reviews. You would think that people wouldn't find it necessary to start a flame war in every thread.

Ah good thing I didn't post my original answer about what's next from Nvidia then... Cause it would have been: "More bull**** and lies probably" ;)

silence
02-17-03, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
All respects and props to ya Onde since I consider ya a buddy and all, but I'll respectfully disagree here. Yes the 9700 is getting stellar reviews pretty much across the board, but the same could be argued for the 8500. It didn't get quite the raving reviews, but I remember quite a few sites pimping it as "ATI's new begining"...

...it wasn't, it isn't; I still think the 8500 has some real basic design issues and is the last of the 'lame ATI' cards. (Well, I count the 9100 & 9000 in there too. ;) )

The 95/9700 series, however, IS a different ATI. Really, truly; honest. I really swore I wouldn't spend another penny on an ATI card after my 8500 since I was just burned one time too many by their damned PR division (and I only paid $70us for my retail 8500 that I'm so un-pleased with) and they really did hear about that and offered me the 9500 Pro to play with for a few weeks.

They REALLY have changed, and this card really delivers on all the hype!

I started out an ATI guy, I turned into an nVidia freak with my GF2, by the time I got the GF3 & 8500 I'd finally learned that the brand name don't mean squat as much as the current product does.

My advice to VulcanOrion right now would be to give the 9700 Pro a try. IMHO it really is the best card out right now, 'specially considering no one really knows when the FX will be out or what exactly it will be then. If you can hold off a couple of weeks on buying a card I would really try and do that since there's going to be a massive price shift right after the E3 shows. (When are they? Anyone know? I'm too lazy to look 'em up. ) I think the FX is going to REALLY premiere at E3, and I think the 9900 will also be premiered and will be immedietly available right after. :)

(See? I can SO post without flaming! :p )

nice post.......i also see lots of pros for r300 and no real contras.....as i said i started to come here lately,after FX so called lauch and tryed to getas much info as i can.......and from all i have i think thet ATi did great job.......i also think thet nv30 is very good chip thet has few issues>>instability,heat,noise ....for which i think are caused by dumb idea to overclock original FX core (400 Mzh) in attempt to beat r300 as fastet card on market.........

i would really like to see reviews of non-ultra FX cause when u take a look at quadro chips(using same core) you see thet FX core has potential and might deliver with some changes to design.......

IMO......making FX card with DDR instead of DDR II and using 256 bit memory bus instead of 128 would change alot.......but i have no clue in engeenering,this is just my wild guess from all the info i read lately.....looks like more heat is coming from memory then fx chip itself.......

it's not thet easy to decide what to buy........i have verylimited funds and i really need all the info i can get

noko
02-17-03, 02:14 PM
I don't think anyone has done a good overall review yet of the advantages of each solution GF FX and Radeon R300 series. I hope Nvidia gets the GF FX (non ultra) out as soon as possible. It is a big step up from the GF 4 Ti4600 and should be out by now. I hope Nvidia isn't over reacting to the reviews of the GF FX Ultra. So what, get this card out and in volume and let the driver guys/gals do their thing. It does have features that the R300 chip can't do and vice and versa.

Now if Nvidia released the non ultra in the sub $300 range with the street value around the mid $200 why wouldn't someone want to buy one? I think Nvidia has a viable product, they just need to get it out. Frankly I think it is better then most people think.

legion88
02-17-03, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
All respects and props to ya Onde since I consider ya a buddy and all, but I'll respectfully disagree here. Yes the 9700 is getting stellar reviews pretty much across the board, but the same could be argued for the 8500. It didn't get quite the raving reviews, but I remember quite a few sites pimping it as "ATI's new begining"...

...it wasn't, it isn't; I still think the 8500 has some real basic design issues and is the last of the 'lame ATI' cards. (Well, I count the 9100 & 9000 in there too. ;) )

(snip...)


Although it is true that the 8500 did get positive remarks during its initial release, it was not in the same category as the 9700. The 8500 was tagged with the "potential" label while the 9700 was tagged as a "killer product" from the start. That's a big difference.

Most people don't buy products based on "potential". Reviewers dropped the ball big time with the 8500 while they were on the ball with the 9700. In fact, some reviewers back in the day went too far in defending the underdog in some misguided attempt to create some competition for NVIDIA. They clearly didn't have any confidence in ATI. If they knew what ATi could do with the 9700, all those bogus 8500 reviews wouldn't have been published.

When we have reviewers publishing Quack-optimized Quake 3 benchmark scores without even mentioning the obvious flaws in image quality, what does that say about the reviewers? Some reviewers were even aware of the Quack code in the drivers but still chose not to mention it at the time (e.g. Tom's Hardware).

I remember one reviewer being quite slick and used Serious Sam screenshots to show off image quality (even though SS benchmarks weren't published) while publishing the Quake 3 scores.

digitalwanderer
02-17-03, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by silence
it's not thet easy to decide what to buy........i have very limited funds and i really need all the info i can get

Well, then my best advice to you would be to wait until after E3. There's going to be a lot of revelations there from both nVidia & ATI and I expect some new products from both which should push the price of current cards down rather nicely. ;)

I'm holding off for some type of 9x00 luvin, but I'm still waiting for the next price shift....I can damn near smell that puppy coming up!

Now is not the time to buy a viddy card if you're looking for best value, a month from now I feel would be a LOT better. :)

silence
02-17-03, 05:20 PM
heh......it's never the best time to gettop product ;) ;)

i know i have to wait for my next card......so if they show new stuff and drop prices on current range i won't mind.:D :D

kyleb
02-17-03, 05:52 PM
i don't know, it depends on how you look at it. i bough my geforce3 when it was just released and held onto it untell the 9700pro first hit retail. at both those times i feel i was rewarded in choseing a card that could deliver a beter gameing experience for me than could be had anywere else at the time. to me that experience would not have been worth tradeing for the money i would have saved if i bought the cards anytime later than i actualy did. granted, i only upgrade every other product cycle but i still like anti-alising, anisotropy and all the goodies as high as i can get them at good framerate; so again, it depends on how you look at it.

hithere
02-20-03, 10:52 AM
What's next for Nvidia?

I hope it's a design that is not only forward-thinking, but satisfies the needs of the consumer NOW.

I think that's the central issue here. I don't doubt for a minute that the GF FX GPU architecture represents a superior design, on paper. But unless that design can make it to market in a timely fashion, deliver real-world performance with IQ features enabled, and with image quality commeasurate with price, then I don't care, and neither will the majority of consumers.

Huang to lead engineer: "Congratulations on your incredible design. We are far and away the technology leader again, and your design has garnered us numerous engineering awards for excellence. By the way, we're late to market, completely and totally overbudget, and our award-winning design is beyond the point where it could possibly make us a profit. Consumers are wondering when we will be able to compete again in real world scenarios in current applications. You're fired."

digitalwanderer
02-20-03, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by hithere
What's next for Nvidia?

I hope it's a design that is not only forward-thinking, but satisfies the needs of the consumer NOW.

I think that's the central issue here. I don't doubt for a minute that the GF FX GPU architecture represents a superior design, on paper. But unless that design can make it to market in a timely fashion, deliver real-world performance with IQ features enabled, and with image quality commeasurate with price, then I don't care, and neither will the majority of consumers.

Huang to lead engineer: "Congratulations on your incredible design. We are far and away the technology leader again, and your design has garnered us numerous engineering awards for excellence. By the way, we're late to market, completely and totally overbudget, and our award-winning design is beyond the point where it could possibly make us a profit. Consumers are wondering when we will be able to compete again in real world scenarios in current applications. You're fired."

ROFLMFAO~~~~~

I agree with it all, 'cept the "You're fired." bit. In the real world I'm sure that's how it would work, but in nVidialand it's more like "Here's a large bonus and an opportunity to work on the NV40." :rolleyes: :p

Moose
02-20-03, 11:13 AM
I think the smart thing to do is to wait a few weeks.

The GFFX Ultra will have a small lead on the R9700 pro. The non ultra probably slightly slower and the R350 will probably be out right on the heels of the GFFX.

So it would be smart to wait for the GFFX release and see if the R300 price drops a bit or wait for the R350 to see how much it beats the GFFX by.