How many hours the war will last?

[sebazve]

ok since im getting a little pissed off about this whole thing of go or not going to war...
i have this little question...
Since desert storm last 100 hours and US were not really pissed off i guess this will last from 9 to 5 so when i come home from work ill be able to see the whole show on my TV having dinner.

[silence]

not so likely u'll see all in one day......it will last and it will cost many ppl lives.

[stncttr908]

So where is the option for about 2 weeks to a month which it should take?

[netviper13]

The first time Saddam was pretty much guaranteed the US wouldn't go after him personally, because that would have removed Arab support for the Allied cause.

This time, however, you have a totally prepared Iraqi army and a very desparate Saddam with probable stocks of chemical, biological, and possibly nuclear weapons.

If we invade and he does have access to any of those resources, casualty lists could be very large.

[silence]

anddon't forget one VERY big problem for USmilitary >> if they wantsaddam they have to fight in baghdad,not in desertwhere u have open sky for jets and chopers,but inside large urban area occupied with hostile population........

and US army hasn't attacked major urban area since korean war......that's like 50 years from
remember what happened in somalia.......black hawk down.......urban conflict is something they really wanna avoid.....

[netviper13]

I highly doubt a full-out seige would be our main choice to topple Baghdad though. I can guarantee we'll have some sort of the elite special forces (be it SEALS, Delta Force, or Green Berets) either doing the job itself or finding the exact building Saddam will be in for the attack.

But if there is a large-scale attack on Baghdad, it'll be a bloody one for both sides. We have the better equipment, but they have more people.

[intercede007]

Originally posted by netviper13

This time, however, you have a totally prepared Iraqi army and a very desparate Saddam with probable stocks of chemical, biological, and possibly nuclear weapons.


What makes you think he wasn't prepared during Desert Storm? I mean his military was completely mobilized, his tanks were fueled and in position, his pilots, by then, had already flown several sorties into Kuwait (so they weren't green), he knew the coalition was coming after him and his scuds were fueled and pointed at Isreal. What more could he have done?

This time? No differance. Our satellites know where his troops and equipment are and our pilots are already well versed in killing his command and control facilities.

It'll be another cake walk. Sadaam talked big in the Desert Storm conflict and called for a Jihad, and all his groud forces did was come up with some really interesting ways to surrender. A CNN news correspondant even got 4 of them on live television.

What makes you think they will give up soo easily again intercede007?

Because he still isn't feeding his people, and MRE's taste reeeaaallll good when you're starving.

[netviper13]

This time is very different, because our objective is very different. The first time it was to push the Iraqi army out of Kuwait and prevent an offensive into Saudi Arabia; this time it's to either kill or remove Saddam from power.

In the same way a cornered animal will lash out against its attacker, whether it is stronger or not, Saddam is very likely to do the same. It is only naive to believe there's almost no chance he'll use a WMD of some sort.

[intercede007]

He used them in Desert Storm, so I wouldn't put it past him to use them here.

I just don't see his army putting up much of a fight. Sometimes, on occasion, and depending on the animal, they will surrender when they see there is no way out.

Sadaam's ran with his tail between his legs before.

[stncttr908]

I don't really think that the hard part is going to be actually getting him out of there, moreso what do we do once we do that? Do we basically leave it and move on like we really did with Afghanistan? No, I guess not, because the only thing that we really wanted in Afghanistan was bin Laden, and he got away, and we want the Iraqi oil very much.

[netviper13]

It's not his army I'm worried about, it's what he'll do with the WMDs he probably has. In a nuclear, biological, or chemical war, conventional forces lose their meaning. He could have the worst troops on earth, but if they know how to push the button to fire an anthrax-equipped SCUD then they can do more damage than most people could imagine.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by silence
anddon't forget one VERY big problem for USmilitary >> if they wantsaddam they have to fight in baghdad,not in desertwhere u have open sky for jets and chopers,but inside large urban area occupied with hostile population........

and US army hasn't attacked major urban area since korean war......that's like 50 years from
remember what happened in somalia.......black hawk down.......urban conflict is something they really wanna avoid.....


Ya we kicked the crap out of the skinnies.

Umm lets see 18 to almost a 1000 and we still acheived the objective of the mission even though our leaders left our boys in the desert with no armor and then left as soon as it looked bad. :mad: Nobody seemed to protest when we "invaded" Somalia and killed a bunch of skinnies.:mad:

[netviper13]

Ah but you forget the American public hates casualties. They're all for war until they see someone get shot or hear of a couple soldiers dying (gee, who would have known that happens in war?), then they want our people out right at that moment.

Even though I'm against the war, I talk about it as an inevitability because Dubya gets what Dubya wants. All I know is that once we invade and American soldiers die, anyone who was all for the war who then demands we withdraw our troops is going to get beaten upside the head with a 2x4 by yours truly.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

hmm... the war is already on sebazve. We've had an ongoing air campaign for the past 12 years.

Everytime you hear of a radar site or some sort of vehicle being bombed in the no fly zones thats the work of our Navy Seals, CIA SOGs and a whole array of other elite units. They are already on the hunt in the southern and eastern deserts of Iraq, Iran has even accused some of them of spying because they have been operating near the Iraq/Iran border. You can be sure that they have already infiltrated the Iraqi ranks and have set up shop in the major cities in Iraq.

This second confrontation has been 12 years in the making, there is no excuse for either side not to be prepared;)

Even after we declare war, you can expect an even bigger more extensive air campaign that will last weeks. The ground war who knows, they are going into cities. I'm sure both sides have trained very hard, just a matter of who is better equipped, and who wants it more;)

[vampireuk]

What makes you think he wasn't prepared during Desert Storm?

Apart from the fact they were all out in the open desert just waiting to be attacked? The fact that saddam knew he was going to keep his power? This time his military wont be out in the open so they cant be bombed. This time he knows he will lose his power so no doubt hes going to take everyone to hell with him. Its not going to be pretty.

[silence]

Originally posted by intercede007
What makes you think he wasn't prepared during Desert Storm? I mean his military was completely mobilized, his tanks were fueled and in position, his pilots, by then, had already flown several sorties into Kuwait (so they weren't green), he knew the coalition was coming after him and his scuds were fueled and pointed at Isreal. What more could he have done?

This time? No differance. Our satellites know where his troops and equipment are and our pilots are already well versed in killing his command and control facilities.

It'll be another cake walk. Sadaam talked big in the Desert Storm conflict and called for a Jihad, and all his groud forces did was come up with some really interesting ways to surrender. A CNN news correspondant even got 4 of them on live television.

What makes you think they will give up soo easily again intercede007?

Because he still isn't feeding his people, and MRE's taste reeeaaallll good when you're starving.

he airforce did nothing......he moved his planes to iran
revolutionary guard.......his elite divisions were UNTOUCHED by us during gulf war
tanks on the front line.....older soviet types used by regulars,best were held by RG in the back
urban conflict IS completly different from any kind of desert warfare.

with couple of divisions of RG he can hold Baghdad for months....don't forget you can't bomb the s*** out of him unless you wanna massacre thousends of civilians which would be the DUMBEST thing possible and would start more anti-US movements is surrounding countries.......

during croatian war in 1991 around 800-1000 well motivated men defended single city for 3 month against 15-20000 serbs.......

once again.....if they have to take Baghdad it will be hard......

might happen something like when russians tryed to take Grozny (chechenia) for the first time.....they entered with armor and got massacred by defenders........

u never see WHO is behind next wall when u fight in the urban area.........and god know how will population react......how many civilians might fire at US troops and how will US troops react in such case........

so many open questions

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by silence
revolutionary guard.......his elite divisions were UNTOUCHED by us during gulf war

Do you really think that his "elite" divisions are any match for UK or US troops?:confused: If they even decide to fight they will be crushed. One thing I don't like about the situation with the Kurds in the north is that many of them are working with Al Quaeda, eh, isn't that the enemy?:D

I doubt the US is stupid enough to send armor into Baghdad. I am not in the know, but I am pretty sure it will be a decent sized special op;)

[silence]

Originally posted by UDawg71
Ya we kicked the crap out of the skinnies.

Umm lets see 18 to almost a 1000 and we still acheived the objective of the mission even though our leaders left our boys in the desert with no armor and then left as soon as it looked bad. :mad: Nobody seemed to protest when we "invaded" Somalia and killed a bunch of skinnies.:mad:

u withdrew ur troops cause of it.....in vietnam 58000 americans died compered to 1.5 million vietnamese>>do u call that US victory????

ya,kicked the s*** in vietnam also.........but u lost.

once again......US military has NO exprience in urban conflict at all and may discover that fighting in desert with tech superiority against drafted man isn't the same as fighting tens of thousends of fanatically loyal elite troops in urban area.....

try to dig some info on difference between saddam's regular army and his,own personal revoltionary gurad (couple of divisions).....just check it.....i guess CNN isn't showing that.

[silence]

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
Do you really think that his "elite" divisions are any match for UK or US troops?:confused: If they even decide to fight they will be crushed. One thing I don't like about the situation with the Kurds in the north is that many of them are working with Al Quaeda, eh, isn't that the enemy?:D

I doubt the US is stupid enough to send armor into Baghdad. I am not in the know, but I am pretty sure it will be a decent sized special op;)

once again......in open conflict they aren't.....US and UK have air superiority,but once u start to fight inside the large city populated by millions.......it's completly new game.......

you can't just level whole city with bombs to make room for tanks....and more bombs fall,there is more fox holes to hide in.

try to get some pictures of battle of stalingrad during WWII.....they were fighting inside the city for months,many times one side held one floor of the same building,while other side held other floor.......they could hear each other speak.......u can't use airforce cause u'll bomb ur own........u can't even use armor to full power,cause tanks can't move around the city too much.......u have to go house by house......clean room after room......watch for mines......snipers......civilians firing at ur back......messy

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by silence
u withdrew ur troops cause of it.....in vietnam 58000 americans died compered to 1.5 million vietnamese>>do u call that US victory????

ya,kicked the s*** in vietnam also.........but u lost.

once again......US military has NO exprience in urban conflict at all and may discover that fighting in desert with tech superiority against drafted man isn't the same as fighting tens of thousends of fanatically loyal elite troops in urban area.....

Vietnam wasnt' urban warfare either bud ;) We lost vietnam due to Johnson's stupidity and selfishness. Our military isn't the one to blame for that mess. Besides, we didn't lose, we just fought in reverse :p

The US does have some experience in urban combat...Europe, Panama, Somalia, Iran(KABOOM!:p), Afghanistan(yep, there too ;)) and others. US forces aren't as ignorant as you would like. They train hard and they know their stuff.

try to dig some info on difference between saddam's regular army and his,own personal revoltionary gurad (couple of divisions).....just check it.....i guess CNN isn't showing that.

Yeah, one looks like a bunch of poor boy scouts, and the other looks like KKK, whats the big deal?:p

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by silence
try to get some pictures of battle of stalingrad during WWII.....they were fighting inside the city for months,many times one side held one floor of the same building,while other side held other floor.......they could hear each other speak.......u can't use airforce cause u'll bomb ur own........u can't even use armor to full power,cause tanks can't move around the city too much.......u have to go house by house......clean room after room......watch for mines......snipers......civilians firing at ur back......messy

We aren't the Germans. We've come a long way in the last half century ;)

[silence]

to sum it up.....

u lost in vietnam cause of political decision.
no,you aren't germans.....but i wasn't talking about that.....i was talking about how does urban conflict look.....
many civilians die....period.....and some,if fanatical enough,fire at you........you fire back.....

urban conflict in europe??....i hope u aren't talking ex-yugoslavia,cause i live here and there was NO engagement of US troops in any city....EVER
Panama was low intensity special ops operation....and panamian military doesn't exsist.
somalia........yes,you killed more ppl then you lost.......but eventually YOU withdrew....u didn't finish what u started.
iran???......i hope u don'treferr to that pittifull attempt to rescue hostagesheld in us embassy in teheran when ur special forces crashed in desert and had run away.
aphganistan??.......geeee......u hed special forces there,that's true,but dirty work was done by aphgans of northern alliance with tech help by us/uk spec forces and airforce....btw tanks and APCs for northern alliance were provided by russians;)


big deal about saddam's RG isn't their looks......it's their loyality and fanatism.......looks never won any battles,but fanatism did.

i never said USmilitary sux or anything.......it's just that common american ppl aren't really aware what ur army might face there.u all think it's gonna be like desert storm.....it might,good for you then.but it might be something like somalia,just in larger scale.....like thousend times larger........

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by silence
to sum it up.....

u lost in vietnam cause of political decision.
no,you aren't germans.....but i wasn't talking about that.....i was talking about how does urban conflict look.....
many civilians die....period.....and some,if fanatical enough,fire at you........you fire back.....

Agreed. Glad to clear that up.

urban conflict in europe??....i hope u aren't talking ex-yugoslavia,cause i live here and there was NO engagement of US troops in any city....EVER

no no no, I was reffering to WW2, since you were talking about Germans and their urban warfare I threw some in to complement what you meant.

Panama was low intensity special ops operation....and panamian military doesn't exsist.

Yeah, but Noriega's guard was pretty mean on our guys. Low intensity, hmm... Delta Force, Seals, Rangers and other high calibur units involved, hmm... doesn't seem that low intensity ;)

somalia........yes,you killed more ppl then you lost.......but eventually YOU withdrew....u didn't finish what u started.

Yeah, it was another one of Clinton's political shows :o too bad, the somalis actually want a US presence to return, now I don't know if thats to shoot at or to get food from :p

iran???......i hope u don'treferr to that pittifull attempt to rescue hostagesheld in us embassy in teheran when ur special forces crashed in desert and had run away.

Hence the Kaboom! :p

aphganistan??.......geeee......u hed special forces there,that's true,but dirty work was done by aphgans of northern alliance with tech help by us/uk spec forces and airforce....btw tanks and APCs for northern alliance were provided by russians;)

You also had Marines drive 700 miles inland and engage Taliban ;) Sure the NA did alot of work, but there are many things that the NA was not engaged in, and the UK and US made alot of their victories possible ;)

big deal about saddam's RG isn't their looks......it's their loyality and fanatism.......looks never won any battles,but fanatism did.

I guess we'll have to see how loyal they really are when we fight em' ;) Only way to find out :D

i never said USmilitary sux or anything.......it's just that common american ppl aren't really aware what ur army might face there.u all think it's gonna be like desert storm.....it might,good for you then.but it might be something like somalia,just in larger scale.....like thousend times larger........

I know what you mean, alot of people think it will be a cake walk. War is never easy, it shouldn't be. It should instill a fear to all sides involved because its something you shouldn't get used to. The reason people say it will be a cakewalk however is the fact that they feel secure at home, and are confident in their military. Can't blame em', when you're like us, its hard not to feel that way :p

[silence]

i am not blaming anybody......ppl make their opinion on what they see......and they see great USmilitary.

as i said when i started to comment on US capability for urban warfare >> us army has no experience in it since korean war,that's 50 years in the past.
and if i wasn't clear enough i'll explain.....US military wasn't engaged in large scale operation in higley populated urban area for over 50 years and this is adventage to saddam,large adventage for 2 reasons -

obvious lack of experience in such enviroment on attackers gives an edge to defenders.

US public isn't prepared for what might happen if u get involved in such conflict,most ppl in US think it will be few days of airforcs/tomahawk show on CNN followed by saddam's surrender.



only true adventage US troops have in any kind of warfare is their ability to fight during the night.....which has to prove itself inside the city....
my fear is that it could become too messy,with too many US body bags coming back to US,so US public may decide theydon't like it anymore and start calling for boys to go home......if that happens saddam might become the biggest hero arab fundamentalist ever had and mightunite a large front to fight western targets anywhere in the world...........
question is how much is US public ready to pay when it comes to their sons and husbands to git rid of saddam.........

sorry,but US does have the history of withdrawing from things after they get to messy to be shown on TV......and where does that leave us?

[vampireuk]

If it comes to urban combat the Brits will be used heavily no doubt due to experience gained from 20 years in Northern Ireland. The SAS I know for sure are unbelievable when it comes to urban combat, just look at the iranian embassy siege to see that ;)

Althought we are apparently known as the borrowers :p the Brits can offer quite a lot of advice for if the war goes into a city:cool:

And we have more tea in the gulf than the yanks do troops:D