I'm displeased and upset with MikeC's behavoir in the Peter Glaskowsky thread.

[digitalwanderer]

Dear nVnews staff:

I did not care for the way that MikeC tried to set opinion by deletion in the thread about the NV30 winning the Microwhatever award of 2002. I felt he was defending a paid flunky of nVidia by trying to stifle his detractors, and when that failed he closed the thread.

I am very disapointed, and I admit it a little angered at this behavoir. Is this going to be typical of nVnews forums in the future?

I felt nVnews was being exceptionally cool by avoiding any of these type of "fanboy" situations with the FX by staying by the facts as they are rather than trying to view them thru (expensive) rosy-colored lenses, MikeC's actions make me question that. :(

Quite seriously,
John Hayden
aka "digitalwanderer"

[PreservedSwine]

Closing of thread because the administrator disagree's w/ the direction of thread is a bit hard to swallow, IMO



:nono:

[Geek_]

I dissagree with the closing of the thread. I was just getting started and only made one post that was civil. :angel:

[Hanners]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I felt he was defending a paid flunky of nVidia by trying to stifle his detractors, and when that failed he closed the thread.

Well, I wouldn't call Peter Glaskowsky a 'paid flunky of nVidia', more like a man who doesn't have quite the grasp of modern graphics technology that he would perhaps like to.

However, I do have to agree that I'm more than disappointed to see posts being deleted from the thread, followed by it ultimately being locked. Besides the odd flame (which IMO was nothing worthy of post deletion), most of the conversation was intelligent and thoughtful (as always seems to be the case here, which is why I try to spend a bit of time hanging around here when I can).

Being a Moderator means walking a thin line between being too leniant and too severe, and I'm sorry to say that I think Mike crossed way too far into 'severe' territory on this occasion, and has ended up abruptly finishing a discussion which should (and quite rightly so) have run and run.

[toddsmack2k]

I am a member with digitalwanderer over at DH and want to speak up for him and others who's posts were edited. The people should be allowed to speak their mind regardless of it being good or bad. I believe if you read most all the posts about that award most agree with what Dig said. They all voiced their opinion and it should be heard. I would like to think that you would want people to be passionate and care that much about the truth and calling something what it is, even if it is bad. Digitalwanderer calls it like it is. He and all others here are in the majority of thinking that the award was bought and paid for or twisted by some means. Give them what they want, to be heard. Do not close the thread. It will make you a better place to let everyone speak their mind freely even if it does not make a few happy. Sometimes the truth hurts plain and simple.

[Sazar]

if a thread is deemed to be headed in an area that may not conform with the websites stated guidelines or into a sensitive area/flame war... it is then considered proper to close the thread to avoid further heartache and it does help the mod/supermod/admin in that they do not have to keep one eye on THAT thread while @ the same time doing whatever other duties they have on the website...

on the other hand if the thread is conctructive and is a forum to voice an opinion in a reasonable manner than it should not be closed...

considering the thread in question there were various comments made which were personal attacks which stooped far below the level set by Peter... I personally posted a couple of not so nice little tid-bits :D but I did not attack as vehemently as some others...

so long as the posters whose submissions were edited were informed as to why this happened... which I think was done... there should be little reason to complain... :)

besides it is the mod/supermod/admins perogative as to what they would like to do :)

however... :)

IMO I do not think that the thread should have been closed... especially for the reasons posted... the same can be said for peter.. he could have simply avoided the flame wars by using better judgement and posting more accurately or in more detail WHAT the award was based on...

the thread became what it was not just because of the award... but the reasons posted and then the defense of the reasons posted...

again perhaps a little more sensitivity on the matter could have made that thread stay open and perhaps this thread could have been avoided... and this probably applies to all of us.... no just to peter and the mod in question...

[gravioli]

Okay, maybe I was slightly out of line by ending my 2-3 line post with "god damn idiot". However, why wasn't I asked to remove that part of the post? I would have gladly edited it. The meat of my post just asked people to send a well thought/constructive e-mail to PNG concerning the Microprocessor Report decision.

My hunch is that PNG and the Microprocessor Report do have some pull in the industry and Mike didn't want to have nV News looked upon in a negative manner. If this was the case (and I hope it wasn't), then I would be extremely disappointed in Mike's decision to delete the posts.

[Hellbinder]

I Dont see where any of my posts reached that level. Yet he deleted them. I was not partaking in all the out of control persoanal attacks. MikeC even deleted this this post.

Whatever pete... :rolleyes:

My thanks to you all for giving me a rare fond feeling of nostalgia for the good old days. I mastered the art of flaming before many of you were even born. Mastered it, and moved on. I'm invulnerable to it now. Running and participating in various political and technical BBSs across the country from the '70s through the '90s helped me get the job I have today, where I make a good honest living by studying, thinking, and writing about the most advanced microprocessors on the market.

If any of you had the brains to wipe your own asses, you'd have long since found all the evidence you need to support our award, but you're simply not trying.

Just for the record, I don't get paid by Nvidia for my work, except insofar as there are some Nvidia people who subscribe to Microprocessor Report. There are also subscribers from ATI and other graphics-chip companies. They, and all of our subscribers, have already received the full text of the article in which I explain our award, and theirs are the only opinions of our work that matter to me.

Other than that, I'm not going to bother cleaning up any of the crap I've seen posted here. What I wrote originally is clear enough, and provides an adequate explanation of the GeForce FX's eligibility for the award. Read it, or don't, it's up to you.

Kyleb, I have to say I really like that photoshopped image. I'll make sure Jensen Huang and the marketing people at Nvidia see it. I'm sure they'll get as big a kick out of it as I did; they all have a great sense of humor. It may also provide a laugh for the folks I know at ATI, who also make great graphics chips. I mean this seriously, it's funny as hell, and a high point of my career. :-)

Yeah, Just keep posting Generalizations stooge...

Who the Hell do you think your dealing with here? Not everyone on these forums rolled off the turnip truck yesterday. The Award going to the GFFX is so patently Absurd its not even funny. What you wrote originally does not Justify a Damn thing.

You post unsupported, unprovable Generalizations and I post hard verifiable evidence. You don't even want to get into a detailed Feature debate with me pal. I don't Frikking care who you think you are or who you work for. Lets Talk about various parts of the NV30 hardware that are broken. Lets talk about totally Crippled FP32 precision. Lets talk about Sub standard Anti aliasing. Lets talk about Its 128 bit memory controller. Lets talk about its Giant cooling system. Lets talk about it losing every single benchmark when the IQ's are matched (as close as possible) to the 9700pro. Lets talk about its Long instruction lengths being to slow to actually use because of Hardware and design issues...

Lets talk about WHY you ignored shipping products like the Level-II/III 9700pro that beats the GFFX ultra in every single benchmark across the board. Lets talk about The FX having to run at nearly 200mhz faster (with the aid of a Dust Buster ) just to beat the 9700pro by a messily 10% average without any IQ enhancing features. Lets Talk about how it's going to get totally outclassed before it even hits the consumer.

You have not made ANY case at all To support such a Ridiculous Choice.

It is so obvious that the GFFX Ultra is a completely HACKED, over clocked Speed Job its not even funny. Yet you reward a product like this??? If what you are saying is true then Ati should have been able to over clock a SINGLE 9700pro to extreme levels and win the award! Which they are perfectly capable of doing. Thats how hollow and silly your award is.

How do you judge which technology is better? The 9700pro is clearly the more elegant design. It clearly wins in every major category except Two. Max color precision, and instruction length. In fact its CLEAR you don't have a damn clue what you are even talking about with programmability. Its just length of shader instructions buddy, and a few more math functions. Thats it. The hardware itself is not Programmable. It is simply capable of running more complex shader routines. Routines that wont see the light of day for another 2 years. Both the 9700pro and GFFX are DX9 classed hardware. Even Worse, Nvidia has to revert the Nv30 to FP 16 all the time. Which makes their higher precision totally unusable. You give awards to people for Good intentions??? Hell Give Bitboys the award then. They Sold a Chip or Two here and there as well.

What is it that carries more weight for you than all the other negatives the Nv30 has. Which there are a TON. What does the Nv30 have that outweighs all the many positives that the 9700pro has. Besides which ATi DELIVERED a working product to the consumer 6 months ago.

Your decision makes no sense at all. Neither do all your foolish unsupported generalizations and Visions of Grandeur.


Which i dont see warrants deletion. Other than it is not very flattering of the nv30..

I simply should NOT have been included in the list of *offenders*. At all.

[|JuiceZ|]

I didn't get a chance examine this thread before it was edited but the last post from Mike explains our exact feelings right now:

Originally posted by MikeC
...the emotions lie deeper than this thread. There's a dark cloud that's been looming over the forums during the past month as anti-NVIDIA campaigns have become commonplace, which has put me in an uncomfortable situation.

But when I see the same members continually posting trash about NVIDIA, I have to draw the line. How many times does it take for someone to get their point across?

Whether this thread deserved to be closed or not isn't the issue if each one just turns into another Nvidia bash fest. Don't take it personal guys but we're just tired of it. We have no problem admiting Nvidia latest product wasn't what everyone was hoping for but we all know that, so its time to move on.

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by |JuiceZ|
Whether this thread deserved to be closed or not isn't the issue if each one just turns into another Nvidia bash fest. Don't take it personal guys but we're just tired of it.

Amen to that, its just frustrating to see all the fan boy type bashing going on. We do not want it here, there are other places you can go if you wish to flame but we are here to help people.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by vampireuk
but we are here to help people.

All respects to ya and no flame or offense intended, but isn't making people aware of the invalidity of an award for a product and pointing out a few real problems with a product part of "helping people"?

Which people are we talking about vampiruk, I guess that's what I'm asking. :(

[vampireuk]

How many awards like this have been given out in the past? I am thinking quite a few, it's sad that this one is jumped on because its from a different company which some people do not like. If people come to this board they are going to read more than one thread on the FX and will form their own opinions from the many reviews out there too. However something that does not help is for someone to open a thread and see fan boy flamming and whining. By all means post opinions but we are sick to our back teeth of the constant bashing, and things are going to change for the better around here.

[Sazar]

thought everyone concerned may find this interesting :)

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030219/sfw063_1.html

and this

http://www.instat.com/custom.asp

Methodologies
In-Stat primarily focuses on the use of two methodologies when collecting primary data:

1. Structured telephone interviews
In both business-to-business and consumer research, one of the best ways to collect primary data, particularly among targeted audiences, is by utilizing structured telephone interviews. In-Stat/MDR works with clients to develop questionnaires that are clear, concise, and provide meaningful data from qualified respondents. In-Stat/MDR is able to obtain quality sample for its projects by leveraging its affiliation with Cahners Business Lists, along with other third party business list owners. The questionnaires are then administered by a trusted, third party vendor with a staff of professionally trained interviewers with years of experience in conducting B-to-B and consumer interviews. In-Stat/MDR regularly conducts telephone studies on a variety of topics that range in size from 50 to more than 1,000 completed interviews.

2. Web-based interviews
In recent years, Internet or web-based interviewing has become an accepted and effective method for collecting primary data. In-Stat/MDR has the capability to program and host questionnaires that include sophisticated features such as list randomization and rotation, complex branching, as well as customized validation and error checking. A key component of our web-based research capability is our Technology Adoption Panel, a dynamic, online panel of thousands of technology users and decision-makers interested in contributing their opinions and insights about technology usage and technology issues in the workplace. The panel is comprised of a diverse group of people who represent a wide range of company sizes, industries, and areas of expertise. The diversity of the panel allows us to gather information on a variety of topics from many different perspectives. In addition, In-Stat/MDR has access to other third party research panels, as well as opt-in e-mail lists from Cahners Business Lists and other list vendors.

their methodology is not exactly the best in the world but it is quite reminiscent of a number of similar companies...

it is really nice to see nvidia not holding back @ winning this award... :)

their restraint in light of this most prestigous of all awards if quite admirable :)

[Sazar]

Originally posted by vampireuk
How many awards like this have been given out in the past? I am thinking quite a few, it's sad that this one is jumped on because its from a different company which some people do not like. If people come to this board they are going to read more than one thread on the FX and will form their own opinions from the many reviews out there too. However something that does not help is for someone to open a thread and see fan boy flamming and whining. By all means post opinions but we are sick to our back teeth of the constant bashing, and things are going to change for the better around here.

there is a problem with various points in the award presentation which have been picked up by various peoples and questioned...

it is not about hating nvidia... it is about the product and whether it is either qualified or deserving of the award...

by the way... have a read of the other thread... peter gave as good as he got... hence I don't think anyone on this forum who was involved in the discussion really had anything to lose :)

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by Sazar
by the way... have a read of the other thread... peter gave as good as he got... hence I don't think anyone on this forum who was involved in the discussion really had anything to lose :)

Nah, I'll be the first to admit that I was over-the-top at the guy...but that's how I am and I STILL feel the guy was asking for it and had it coming.

But Mike was right on a lot of his deletions, I just feel he went a bit too far once he got started. There were a LOT of valid points/arguments that disapeared along with the "I called the man a lying bag of sh&t, in what way is that insulting if the man is a lying bag of sh&t?" type of posts I was putting up. (Although I STILL think even that one is darn near valid too...albeit a bit acerbic. :rolleyes: )

It does have a touch of a one-sideness feel to it. :(

[Hellbinder]

Faboy this fanboy that... :rolleyes:
its nothing more that some Starw-Man argument to justify one persons opinion over the other.

Whether this thread deserved to be closed or not isn't the issue if each one just turns into another Nvidia bash fest. Don't take it personal guys but we're just tired of it. We have no problem admiting Nvidia latest product wasn't what everyone was hoping for but we all know that, so its time to move on

No the ISSUE is that there is no way in hell the Nv30 deserved an award that clearly should have gone to ATi. ITs preposterous. How can you in one scentence say *we all agree the Nv30 is not all it was cracked up to be* and in the next say move on and forget that it just got awarded Graphics Processor of the year????

And people who qeustion it with hard cold facts are Fanboys??

That is so completely STUPID its not even funny.

You want to know who the real fanboys are? Its people who defend the undefendable, and edit/delete posts they dont agree with, or call people they dont agree with Fanboys as somekind of Justified dismisal.

I am in complete agreement with editing/deleting threads that really get out of line with out of control personal attacks and or insults. But mild badgering and posting well though out arguments is just blatant Sensorship of ideas.

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
You want to know who the real fanboys are? Its people who defend the undefendable, and edit/delete posts they dont agree with, or call people they dont agree with Fanboys as somekind of Justified dismisal.


Think what you like, the posts that were edited were justified. Of course a lot of people would rather complain that follow the rules I guess. If you dont like the rules (which have been around since the start of this site) then you know where the door is. Because of the transistion to new moderators some things have slipped through. For all the old timers they will know what this board was like and the rules that were enforced without exception. These have not changed and just because we have been learning the ropes that gives no one the excuse to try and break them.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by vampireuk
How many awards like this have been given out in the past? I am thinking quite a few, it's sad that this one is jumped on because its from a different company which some people do not like. If people come to this board they are going to read more than one thread on the FX and will form their own opinions from the many reviews out there too. However something that does not help is for someone to open a thread and see fan boy flamming and whining. By all means post opinions but we are sick to our back teeth of the constant bashing, and things are going to change for the better around here.

I gave out an award of my own too. I guess nobody got to see it. I really liked it and thought it was fair :D :p oh well, I guess MikeC didn't agree. Anyways, I don't really care, I am not that into video cards anymore. If people can't take a joke, thats their problem:o

EDIT: MikeC, I've been here for a while now, I would have thought that after me being here for months, you would have at least spelled my username correctly, I'm hurt:rolleyes: :p

[jbirney]

I agree there has been a lot of nV30 bashing going on. Probably too much. Some of it is over the top others are justified. I would imagine even the mods here can see the irony of the fact the NV30 won any award for 2002 when it never ship to end users that year. Mike and the mods have every right to lock, delete or ban threads here. However I feel that Peter's responses should have also been including in that same warning has he was as much to blame as every one else. He did not have to drop to to thier level but he did....

[creedamd]

The only problem is that most of the time the help people stuff comes in under the driver forum. Most other talk is about nvidia is going to be negative at this time. But I like to read about it, true the ati roxors stuff can go, but legitimate claims should stay. It is for your benefit too, mods. I know you guys do agree with alot of the stuff that is said.

Mike said he was in an uncomfortable position. I understand, it would look bad for someone from nvidia to look in that forum and see the mud slung all over their flagship. But then I think hey, maybe this will help them see the light, kick them in gear, none of us want a one sided battle, it's lose lose for everyone. If I am correct even Rage3d was going to shut down before Ati acknowledged that it was losing its userbase.

Please don't let Nvnews become controlled by nvidia. I come come here for the opinions on both side of the wall.

Robert

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by vampireuk
Think what you like, the posts that were edited were justified. Of course a lot of people would rather complain that follow the rules I guess. If you dont like the rules (which have been around since the start of this site) then you know where the door is. Because of the transistion to new moderators some things have slipped through. For all the old timers they will know what this board was like and the rules that were enforced without exception. These have not changed and just because we have been learning the ropes that gives no one the excuse to try and break them.

But Mr. Glawskowsky seems to have gotten execption, and there were many posts that were removed that did not violate your rules in any way other than to politely challenge the validity of the award or the presenting company. THAT'S the issue a lot of us are hung-up on. :(

[LORD-eX-Bu]

I really hope he got to see the award I gave him;) Maybe they'll plaster it all over their site :D that'd be awesome! they earned it, they should pat themselves on the back:p

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by jbirney
I would imagine even the mods here can see the irony of the fact the NV30 won any award for 2002 when it never ship to end users that year.

gfFX is actually supposed to be out soon. Athlon64 won the processor of the year award and it won't be out till September....

edit: i stayed out of the thread in question because i knew it would degenerate into a flamefest/bashing fest. seems like that is how most gfFX threads wind up.

it's a little tiring.

i'll admit the gfFX deserves some bashing, but we've done that, it's time to move on.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Well, seeing how so many people anxiously waited for this card(I didn't ;)) and seeing how nVIDIA let them down by delaying it, then let them down with less than spectacular performance, and now slapped them all in the face by not giving them the opportunity to buy it, hmm.... I think nVIDIA deserves all the bashing these guys can dish out. Besides, isn't this an nV site? I mean, c'mon, this is THE topic that is important right now. All of these people were let down, I beleive they should be able to vent their disappointment and resentment and voice their opinion on nVIDIA and MDR selling out to nVIDIA. ATI deserved that award, you know it, I know it, everyone knows, it, even that Peter whatever guy knows it, they just sold their award and all their credibility along with it. Trying to censor what people think in what should be an open discussion is kinda dumb, its just another way to twist the overall opinion of people that visit and contribute to this forum. It makes it even worse that that thread was censored just to appease some "big shot" from a sell-out site. I could care less who he is, I bet 90% of the people here didn't even know who the hell he was until he started parading his "greatness" through the thread. Yeah, that'l really help nV News:rolleyes:

[JAV]

I'm a lurker, but I had to respond to this: We have no problem admiting Nvidia latest product wasn't what everyone was hoping for but we all know that, so its time to move on.

No more GFFX discussions? That'd be great! I'll look forward to never seeing another GFFX comment on these boards again. When ya get tired of the Intel vs AMD comments: you can kill all posting of that too. VIA vs nForce too.

Gonna be a ghosttown around here very soon at that rate, IMO.

Don't take it personal guys but we're just tired of it

Personal? Nah, it's your site & if y'all get tired of something > kill it ... we 'users' don't need to express our thoughts or opinions here when there are so many other sites that will allow us the freedom to do so & don't kill the threads just cuz they're "tired".

'Nuff said,