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DSC
02-28-03, 08:09 AM
http://www.driverheaven.net/display.php?page=richard_interview


[Richard Huddy] NVIDIA used to be a technology company pure and simple but has recently allowed its-self to become led by marketing. To give two straightforward examples of things it has done wrong, it produced a product called the GeForce 4 MX, which is clearly a GeForce 2 class piece of hardware, and it spent almost a year too long producing the GeForce FX. The first costs the trust of buyers everywhere, and the second cost them the lead in a very competitive race.

Yes, all the Code Mafia guys could see this kind of thing happening at NVIDIA. We fought these errors from inside NVIDIA but the management didn't agree with our judgement about what was wrong - so we agreed to part company. We actually left on really good terms - but I admit that they weren't too pleased when we signed up with ATI!



[Richard Huddy] To be honest making sure that a company logo is displayed at the start of a game feels like a real distraction. To me it's another case of marketing taking too much control. What we really need is great looking games that play well - not logos that advertise my employer (or anyone else's).


When a company lets itself be run by marketing, thats the sign it's gonna be producing mediocre parts.

Since Nvidia is going the Creative Labs way, I don't see a need for anyone to purchase any Nvidia products until they change and go back to the old ways of letting the engineers dictate what to do instead of marketing dept dictating the course for the company.

:mad: :(

silence
02-28-03, 09:14 AM
hmmmmm.......i can see ur point,but buying or not-buying NV products has nothing to do with their latest PR stunts. all i am interested is how their products perform and that's why i gonna buy Nforce2 mobo, but i prolly won't buy any of the latest video cards from NV.

and u can't honestly say that for example Nforce2 s****.

one more thing....by the latest news about r350 it looks like ATI is having some trouble with TSMC and their .13 process as well.so it isn't all on NV and their marketing guys. it sure looks like yields on .13 at TSMC are so low that NV simply can't get FX out to retail in any significant quantity......so they use their marketing department overtime.maybe we don't like,but that's normal business strategy......IMO,any company would do something like that. they can't just go to press and blame TSMC for delays,so onlything leftare PR stunts.

Captain Beige
02-28-03, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by silence
hmmmmm.......i can see ur point,but buying or not-buying NV products has nothing to do with their latest PR stunts. all i am interested is how their products perform and that's why i gonna buy Nforce2 mobo, but i prolly won't buy any of the latest video cards from NV.

and u can't honestly say that for example Nforce2 s****.

one more thing....by the latest news about r350 it looks like ATI is having some trouble with TSMC and their .13 process as well.so it isn't all on NV and their marketing guys. it sure looks like yields on .13 at TSMC are so low that NV simply can't get FX out to retail in any significant quantity......so they use their marketing department overtime.maybe we don't like,but that's normal business strategy......IMO,any company would do something like that. they can't just go to press and blame TSMC for delays,so onlything leftare PR stunts.

r350 is .15 not .13

rv350 is .13 and last I heard they were coming along great with the new process

digitalwanderer
02-28-03, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by silence
and u can't honestly say that for example Nforce2 s****.

Bad example with the nForce2, I just read a ditty about some problems they seem to be experiencing across the whole line of mobos of those....you can read more about it here (http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11744).

one more thing....by the latest news about r350 it looks like ATI is having some trouble with TSMC and their .13 process as well.

That's the first I've heard on that one! I've heard from some reliable inside sources that ATI was actually happily surprised by the ease they had of transitioning to the .13 process and yields are currently much higher than expected. Where did you hear your news from?

I thought that interview that Zardon did was just fantastic, and I felt it was very revealing about the current problems with nVidia...it just seems to fit with everything going on with them.

Sazar
02-28-03, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by silence
hmmmmm.......i can see ur point,but buying or not-buying NV products has nothing to do with their latest PR stunts. all i am interested is how their products perform and that's why i gonna buy Nforce2 mobo, but i prolly won't buy any of the latest video cards from NV.

and u can't honestly say that for example Nforce2 s****.

one more thing....by the latest news about r350 it looks like ATI is having some trouble with TSMC and their .13 process as well.so it isn't all on NV and their marketing guys. it sure looks like yields on .13 at TSMC are so low that NV simply can't get FX out to retail in any significant quantity......so they use their marketing department overtime.maybe we don't like,but that's normal business strategy......IMO,any company would do something like that. they can't just go to press and blame TSMC for delays,so onlything leftare PR stunts.

that would be fine so long as us 'enthusiasts' (per .png) don't know jack... but the problem is that we are at least a little better informed than a lot of the business analysts and so-called 'experts' in many ways...

info is found... posted... dissected in discussion and conclusions drawn.. thats what makes a good website forum :)

I also have not heard of ati having problems with tsmc... and AFAIK... rv350 = 0.13 micron process... r350 = 0.15 micron process...

now the other thing is nvidia is working overtime telling the world they have the highest performing gpu on the market... :)

thats not a coverup in my eyes.. thats a blatant lie..

DaveW
02-28-03, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by DSC

Since Nvidia is going the Creative Labs way, I don't see a need for anyone to purchase any Nvidia products until they change and go back to the old ways of letting the engineers dictate what to do instead of marketing dept dictating the course for the company.

:mad: :(

I think they are going more of the way of 3dfx... they got infected by a few bad ideas when the assimilated them I think. 3dfx's problem was that they didn't listen to what the customers wanted and instead their marketting dept tried to TELL them what they wanted.

In the case of 3dfx it was "You don't need 32 bit color, but you do need this lame motion blur effect".

In the case of nVidia it was "You don't need efficient AA and AF, but you do need 1024 million pixel shader ops that only our pixie demo will ever use... which btw, is not available for download".

The will probably learn from their mistakes, but that won't happen until the NV40 or so, since the NV35 is already too far along in development.

Sazar
02-28-03, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by DaveW
I think they are going more of the way of 3dfx... they got infected by a few bad ideas when the assimilated them I think. 3dfx's problem was that they didn't listen to what the customers wanted and instead their marketting dept tried to TELL them what they wanted.

In the case of 3dfx it was "You don't need 32 bit color, but you do need this lame motion blur effect".

In the case of nVidia it was "You don't need efficient AA and AF, but you do need 1024 million pixel shader ops that only our pixie demo will ever use... which btw, is not available for download".

The will probably learn from their mistakes, but that won't happen until the NV40 or so, since the NV35 is already too far along in development.

am sure the Dawn demo will be released once dx9 hardware is released by nvidia..

saturnotaku
02-28-03, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Bad example with the nForce2, I just read a ditty about some problems they seem to be experiencing across the whole line of mobos of those....you can read more about it here (http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11744).


Actually, I can't because I'm not a registered forum member there. Are you talking about that post from the Inq? If so, remember who the source is. It seems that a lot of folks around these parts with nForce2 motherboards have had good success. Where are the links in that story to people who are having problems with their VIA or SiS-based motherboards? This reeks of double standard.

silence
02-28-03, 10:14 AM
i think i read it somewhere.....but,heh,well:o i did come home rather late yesterday and hmmmmm......did have few beers,so uhm....i might not be 100% accurate.

*ashamed*

digitalwanderer
02-28-03, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
Actually, I can't because I'm not a registered forum member there. Are you talking about that post from the Inq? If so, remember who the source is. It seems that a lot of folks around these parts with nForce2 motherboards have had good success. Where are the links in that story to people who are having problems with their VIA or SiS-based motherboards? This reeks of double standard.

Yeah, it is a post based on the Inquirerer story. Sorry for the member-thing, I keep spacing that. (I don't like it either, but couldn't get them to change it before I left staff there. :( )

I don't think it's a very major story either, but it has been being picked up as one and for nVidia right now the impression of bad news is damn near as bad as the reality. :(

My mates who actually HAVE nForce2 boards rave about 'em and love 'em, and I'll base my opinion off of that over an Inquirerer story any day....it just seemed relevant to this thread and I do have a growing reputation as an Ogre over here to maintain ya know. ;)

I was sort of shocked about the "MSI dropping nVidia and going to ATI?" story on Wall Street today...that is some REAL bad news for nVidia, and I fear it's just the first in a domino-like cascade of OEMs who are gonna be sick of nVidia's BS. :(

Typedef Enum
02-28-03, 10:26 AM
Richard completely hit the nail on the head...When I read it the other day, I was completely in agreement.

Just think about it...Does anybody NOT agree with him on the notion that ATI now has the passion and drive to succeed? IE...Is it not representative of where nVidia used to be a few years ago? It has been clear as day that the days when nVidia "has it" are long gone, and ATI now feels it.

On the topic of marketing...I cannot hate a worse aspect of nVidia than their marketing department. They have ALWAYS been slothy...even when they weren't the market leader.

How bad are they? Let me give you an example. Imagine you post on Beyond3D (or anywhere...doesn't matter) some "thing"...Let's say you expressed an opinion. About 1 day later, you receive an email from the marketing group @ nVidia, quizzing you on why you think this...why you think that...and sometimes, making it known that they're not pleased with what you posted @ some website.

That example is but a microcosm of what's wrong with nVidia today...It was one of the driving forces behind me withdrawing myself more and more, as I simply cannot accept that level of behavior. Not only that, but you also have these guys badmouthing everything under the sun...AND they expect a free pass when they deliver a POS to the market (ahem...the FX). All along, they kept insisting things like...

"We're the market leader, so you can expect..."

or

"We didn't get to this position by coming in 2nd place..."

etc. etc. etc.

After a while, you just get sick to your stomach of dealing with those people.

DSC
02-28-03, 10:37 AM
Kyro PDF, NV30 "paper" launch, 3DMark03 flaming, pissing off Hercules and Powercolor and of course Visiontek (former Nvidia cardmakers), the PR/marketing dept has done plenty of stupid stunts. Truly a disappointment from the company that used to let Chris Donahue and Nick Triantos actually chat with Nvidia card users back on IRC when the GF256 was launched.

ZoinKs!
02-28-03, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Typedef Enum
How bad are they? Let me give you an example. Imagine you post on Beyond3D (or anywhere...doesn't matter) some "thing"...Let's say you expressed an opinion. About 1 day later, you receive an email from the marketing group @ nVidia, quizzing you on why you think this...why you think that...and sometimes, making it known that they're not pleased with what you posted @ some website. Is this example "for real?" Did this actually happen or are you relating a hypothetical situation? If it really did happen to somebody, all I can say is, "Wow..." :eek:

Typedef Enum
02-28-03, 11:09 AM
Yes...very real. That didn't happen just once either.

kyleb
02-28-03, 11:37 AM
don't supose you might let us in on the comments in question?

Typedef Enum
02-28-03, 11:43 AM
I thought it was OK to make the point, but don't feel it's right to do a copy/paste job from direct emails.

As I said, it would simply be along the lines of, "I saw what you said on yada-dada yesterday, and think you're way off base..."

jbirney
02-28-03, 12:25 PM
What got me a bit upset that conditions are put on reviewing the FX cards. For example B3D was not allowed to run 3dmark2k3. Dave over there was not planning to at this point but still handing out review cards only after certin conditions are meet? Bad Mojo :(

kyleb
02-28-03, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Typedef Enum
I thought it was OK to make the point, but don't feel it's right to do a copy/paste job from direct emails.


understood, i would never ask for you to present their responces; i am only curious as to your intital comments that drew the attention in the first place. however, i still understand if you do not wish to comment. :angel2:

StealthHawk
02-28-03, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I was sort of shocked about the "MSI dropping nVidia and going to ATI?" story on Wall Street today...that is some REAL bad news for nVidia, and I fear it's just the first in a domino-like cascade of OEMs who are gonna be sick of nVidia's BS. :(

good, maybe this will make them put more effort into design of good products instead of unleashing the marketing machine all the time.

tazdevl
02-28-03, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by DSC
http://www.driverheaven.net/display.php?page=richard_interview





When a company lets itself be run by marketing, thats the sign it's gonna be producing mediocre parts.

Since Nvidia is going the Creative Labs way, I don't see a need for anyone to purchase any Nvidia products until they change and go back to the old ways of letting the engineers dictate what to do instead of marketing dept dictating the course for the company.

:mad: :(

That's a pile of crap.

There are good marketers that work with engineers, understand the technical issues (or work with the engineers to understand them) and communicate effectively. Ones that build a team and ensure that everyone is in the loop... are able to politic and position, while at the same time keeping the customer and end-user in sight.

Then there are bad ones. You have seen an example of a bad team of marketers.

You don't seem to understand what marketing is... then again, neither does nVIDIA. :lol2:

If you want to go the other way, purely engineering driven companies get so involved with the technology, they in many cases develop a solution that doesn't meet the needs of the market or completely misses the window of opportunity.

Let's also not forget than Engineers can screw up as well.. see NV30.

type I think that nVIDIA's efforts to understand the situation are fine, making their opinions known is another story. A smart person would have cultivated the relationship and ensured that next time the question came directly to them so they could control the spin on it.

John Reynolds
02-28-03, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Typedef Enum
I thought it was OK to make the point, but don't feel it's right to do a copy/paste job from direct emails.

As I said, it would simply be along the lines of, "I saw what you said on yada-dada yesterday, and think you're way off base..."

That's one thing I'll definitely say was a positive thing about 3dfx. No one from their PR and/or marketing dept. ever asked me to change a single word in any of the game reviews I did for 3dfxgamers.com. I don't think I ever plugged Glide or in any way promoted 3dfx hardware in those reviews and yet nothing was ever said to me. I remember being surprised by that, because when I accepted the job I was a little leery of that being a possibility.

Contrast that with Nvidia's PR threatening to sue me a few years ago when I was quite a bit more vocal in criticizing their PR/marketing tactics/statements. And I'm sure releasing the Kyro PDF didn't win me brownie points. :cool:

tazdevl
02-28-03, 03:35 PM
I agree John... Scott Taylor always had his head on straight or were you dealing with Rachel?

Typedef Enum
02-28-03, 03:43 PM
Yeah...

I think they take things way too far...

I mean, I'm a 31 year old guy...I'm a practicing engineer...and I need to listen to some dumbass PR guy tell ME what to think? Who the heck does he think he's dealing with?

And that's the problem with nVidia these days...It never used to be like that. They used to let their engineering do the talking...and since marketing is now driving engineering...you can see what happened.

Honestly...think about Cg...Does anybody think it will ever amount to a hill of beans in _REAL_ games? I mean, outside of those small/unknown development groups that will do anything to gain attention...who the heck is going to use it? I hope to God it dies a painful/quick death, and nVidia wakes up and smells the coffee.

tazdevl
02-28-03, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Typedef Enum
Yeah...

I think they take things way too far...

I mean, I'm a 31 year old guy...I'm a practicing engineer...and I need to listen to some dumbass PR guy tell ME what to think? Who the heck does he think he's dealing with?

And that's the problem with nVidia these days...It never used to be like that. They used to let their engineering do the talking...and since marketing is now driving engineering...you can see what happened.

Honestly...think about Cg...Does anybody think it will ever amount to a hill of beans in _REAL_ games? I mean, outside of those small/unknown development groups that will do anything to gain attention...who the heck is going to use it? I hope to God it dies a painful/quick death, and nVidia wakes up and smells the coffee.

LOL well I'm a tech product marketer and pride myself on the fact that I get along with engineers. :afro: Some guys do well, others don't. Each side brings something valuable to the table and if you respect each other, you can get some great things accomplished.

Remember, PR & Marketing are two separate entities. PR is just a tool of marketing. PR strategy @ nVIDIA is driven by Product Marketing and PR executes.

The whole engineering/marketing issue is @ all tech companies. The one's that do a good job take the time to forge a partnership and keep both organizations moving in the same direction... meeting the needs of the customer within their realm of expectations.

CWB
02-28-03, 03:50 PM
When good company turns bad....??? Haha.

All companies are bad, where have you been? Like ATI's been full of integrity the past few years? Or anyone else in the hardware, software, or any other business? Please.

Dont deify corporations that are only out to get your $$, and then you wont be disappointed when you learn the truth.