Smoked

[Typedef Enum]

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDM5LDM=

Man...I started to throw some numbers down, but quickly realized there were too many.

Man, the FX is getting it's ass kicked every which way w/ AA and AF enabled in UT2003. I mean, it's simply amazing.

There are some numbers that darn near approach a 2:1 ratio for God's sake!!

The bottom line is what we've expected all along...When it comes to IQ, there's no comparison...Not only does the ATI stuff look significantly better, it also seriously pummels the FX when enabled.

How times have changed :)

[The Baron]

you do realized that the 5800 is underclocked to 400/400... right? ;)

[Typedef Enum]

Yeah...

That would be the _actual_ FX that nVidia will be shipping; therefore, it's a completely fair comparison.

In fact...I have to give HardOCP credit for doing this, as I bet they will be one of the few (if not the only) to compare products that will actually be shipping.

[The Baron]

Uh... can you somehow not buy the Ultra 5800, or did I miss something?

[Typedef Enum]

Yeah...

I went to the local Best Buy...didn't see one there...

Went to the local Circuit City and CompUSA...none there either.

I even went to a local shop that tends to get new 3D boards, and none there either...

Aside from the fact I cannot seem to find one locally as of this point in time, you can pretty much assume that this trend will continue...unless you haven't been abreast of the latest news :)

[muzz]

The Ultra is just an overclocked 5800. everyone knows it, but most FAIL to mention it....

[Typedef Enum]

Actually...If you want to see something very telling...something that will pretty much tell you everything you need/want to know about NV30, look what Anand had to say...

NVIDIA will not have a chance to respond to the Radeon 9800 Pro for another couple of months, with their NV35 part. NVIDIA has NV35 up and running and it is already significantly better than the lackluster NV30; although we're not sure if it will be able to outperform the Radeon 9800 Pro, at this point we can say that from what we've seen, NVIDIA has regained some of our confidence.

The word "lackluster"....Actually, forget about that...focus on the part about NV35...it being only another "couple of months" away.

nVidia doesn't just bring another new chip out for no reason...outside of the fact that it's getting smoked by the 9700/9800, I think the writing is very clearly on the wall that the FX is pretty much dead.

The thing about NV35 is this...if nVidia didn't do something very serious in the area of IQ...it really won't matter. I mean, R350 is already ridiculously fast...but the IQ difference is nothing short of amazing. So, if all nVidia does is bring out a faster product...it still won't be cutting the mustard.

[Kruno]

Stop quoting me out of context.

What I said and what I ment are 2 different things and you know it.
I used the words "we're not sure" as I have yet seen the R350 perform.

[Hellbinder]

the Thing is Type.. ATi knows that.. which is what the Radeon 9800 256 is all about.

Its going to end up being about 5-10% faster than the Nv35 you can bank on it. With HUGE wins in the IQ department.

[muzz]

If the RUMOUR of the R350/256 version has any weight at all(clock speeds) to it( coming out Aprilish.....), I believe ATi will most likely be fine till the R400 at the beginning of next year.

[Evildeus]

I didn't find the card as great as you are pointing out. Well, i prefer this review with a GFFX @ 500/500 and 400/400

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/456/page1.html

[Kruno]

Originally posted by Evildeus
I didn't find the card as great as you are pointing out. Well, i prefer this review with a GFFX @ 500/500 and 400/400

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/456/page1.html

****ed if I am buying another video card any time soon. :)

[muzz]

Originally posted by Evildeus
I didn't find the card as great as you are pointing out. Well, i prefer this review with a GFFX @ 500/500 and 400/400

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/456/page1.html

Yeah I looked at it....... AND?
The overclocked version of the FX did better than the soon to be retail FX..... so?
If folks don't think that the 9700/9800 pro cannot overclock and see a substanial increase also they are delusional.
Actually as I said in another thread the FX did BETTER than I thought it was going to, but THAT is the card 90% of the retail population will be able to buy... so they will be in the same boat as the ATi folks....
OVERCLOCKING at home 101.........

[mikechai]

Anandtech's ATI Radeon 9800 Pro review (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1794)
More than just a higher clocked Radeon 9700, the Radeon 9800 Pro doesn't cease to impress because of the minor but potent improvements ATI made to the R350 core. Definitely a pleasant surprise, ATI has produced a worthy interim successor to the Radeon 9700 Pro. If you want the best out today, look no further than the Radeon 9800 Pro; it's quiet, faster, occupies a single slot, and will enjoy much wider availability than the GeForce FX.

NVIDIA will not have a chance to respond to the Radeon 9800 Pro for another couple of months, with their NV35 part. NVIDIA has NV35 up and running and it is already significantly better than the lackluster NV30; although we're not sure if it will be able to outperform the Radeon 9800 Pro, at this point we can say that from what we've seen, NVIDIA has regained some of our confidence.

Based on the hint, I think the NV35 will be on time and it will beat 9800 Pro in performance. What I'm not sure is whether there is any image quality improvement over NV30.

As pointed out in various reviews across the web, ATI definitely has a lead in image quality arena. With the new R350, ATI manage to improve the already efficient FSAA/AF mode in R300 to an even higher ground. Kudos to ATI again !

Lets hope they can hold on to the lead ...

p/s. it's quiet, faster, occupies a single slot, and will enjoy much wider availability basically sums it up. :)

[muzz]

IF the 35 comes out as quick as they are talking, then it will be up against the R350/256 version....... IF the talked about clocks on THAT card are true and feasible, I don't think the 35 will cakewalk like some folks seem to think it will.......

We'll see........:D

[mikechai]

256bit memory bus virtually double the bandwidth of NV35 over NV30.

[jjjayb]

256bit memory bus virtually double the bandwidth of NV35 over NV35

IF the nv35 has 256bit memory bus. I remember when everyone thought the nv30 would.

[Hellbinder]

Let me get this straight...

You took this...

although we're not sure if it will be able to outperform the Radeon 9800 Pro

And got this....

Based on the hint, I think the NV35 will be on time and it will beat 9800 Pro in performance. What I'm not sure is whether there is any image quality improvement over NV30.

becuase somehow you ignored the important mpart and clued in on this???

NVIDIA has regained some of our confidence

Again Completely ignoring this...

although we're not sure if it will be able to outperform the Radeon 9800 Pro

Not to mention if they are not sure the Nv35 will outperform the current 9800pro.. how the hell is it going to handle this??

-400 core
-4256mb 460mhz Ram
-improved 4 month mature Drivers..

[mikechai]

Originally posted by jjjayb
IF the nv35 has 256bit memory bus. I remember when everyone thought the nv30 would.

You can count on it this time.

[Hellbinder]

Perhaps you guys need to take another look at this..

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1794&p=7

and this...

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1794&p=9

Notice.. that in both of these the 9800pros QUALITY Settings were as fast as the GFFX Ultras Performance Settings. Which have been shown to be utter goboldygook.

When both use perfomance the GFFXU loses by roughy 30 FPS in every single benchmark. with the odd exception being Code Creates. Which I am at a loss for.

This is the little brother to the card the Nv35 is facing. Do you really think the Nv35 is going to provide better than 30 FPS increase over the Nv30 ultra ???

[mikechai]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
Let me get this straight...

Not to mention if they are not sure the Nv35 will outperform the current 9800pro.. how the hell is it going to handle this??

-400 core
-4256mb 460mhz Ram
-improved 4 month mature Drivers..

Ok, the 9800 Pro at 400 core 460MHz memory will gained another 30% improvement in performance as compare to the current 9800 Pro and ... Nevermind, forget about it.

You win, the NV35 will be destroyed by the 9800 PRO SE.

But isn't you the one who said that the NV35 will beat the R350 ?

[SurfMonkey]

More kudos to ATi, they've produced a decent refresh of the R300. And it's definately showing the NV30 to be something of a three legged horse, fit only for a trip to the vet ;)

But what puzzles me is why ATi chose to develop their top end chip on 150nm and yet their low end chip uses the 130nm process.

Is this because the R350 is too complex a chip for ATi to transition to .13u?

This is either down to process immaturity or ATi are hitting the same problems as nVidia did for the same reasons.

If so then it doesn't make for a 100% rosy future especially now that the R400 has been delayed, as nVidia basically have a six month lead on using the .13u process.

There can't be much more head room in the .15u process and outside their labs ATi have only demonstrated low complexity chips running on .13u.

This could be a see-saw effect of great proportions, nVidia aim for a higher tech process lifting ATi into the spotlight whilst they struggle to bring out the NV30, now ATi are at the top fighting with the new process and that delay could lift nVidia to the top again.

The big disappoinment with the NV30, ignoring the noise and heat for now, was it's terrible bang per buck ratio with regards to its clock - memory speeds. It should be so much faster than it actually is, which would imply that there are some serious architectural problems in the core. It will be interesting to see what the NV35 brings to the table, mainly because most of those bugs have been squashed.

Another wierd thing is how a difference of ~+15 million transistors on a cooler running process left the NV30 running so hot, that seems to say that there are a lot of hot spots on the die which could be down to many things, bad timing, errors in the process, bubbles in the substrate??

ATi have definately got the upper hand this season, should the NV35 not deliver, if it does... well, who knows, maybe ATi can squeeze some more out of .15u tech, then again maybe not.

But for now ATi are in the spotlight and they are going to face the same scrutiny as nVidia did while they work on their new chips. And if they are having problems adjusting to .13u, though they say it went smoothly - but then again who wouldn't, they will have to fight the same PR battle nV did to save face.

This year is going to be incredibly interesting as far as GFX cards go, especially if the local loop of IHV bound manufacturers unwinds so that everyone can make cards using technology from whoever they like, and next spring will amazing!

The content of this statement bares no resemblance to what the author was actaully thinking.
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[Uttar]

Impressive.
But I've got a question after reading all that.

Is the IQ of Quality AF on the R350 the same as the IQ of Quality AF on the R300?
Because, to get a so big performance boost, I'd guess you'd need some type of adaptive algorithm...
If ATI managed to keep the same IQ and get a so big performance boost in those cases, I'm *very* impressed. But I'd like confirmation on that.

AF Quality is supposed to be 100% Trilinear. But is it still? Or is it like the nVidia balanced mode, which got *adaptive* Trilinear? ( and gives slightly worse results )

No matter what, it's still a very impressive card. I look foward to see RV350 benchmarks, to see how well it'll do against a NV31 ( ah well, but I guess we all know the winner of that fight already... )

Also, I'd like to insist that for RV350 & NV31, it would be more reasonable to *also* do 2x AA comparaisons. Sure, if ATI wants to say they can do 4x AA, then do 4x AA benchies too. But 2x AA benchmarks, IMO, should be included in mid-end and low-end reviews.

HellBinder: I think you're getting a fanATIc complex...
You do realize the R9800 256 is probably nothing more than 400/460, right?
That's nothing the NV35 high-end model can't handle.
Of course, there's still the 0.13 R350 rumors... But that's another story.
You weren't refering to that by saying R9800 256, right?

BTW, 460Mhz DDR-II is *not* 27% faster than 360Mhz DDR-I, it would seem. That's because there are latency issues ( see B3D posts about it )
Probably more like 21% faster... :(


Uttar

[Lezmaka]

9700 16xAF
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA0NjgwOTI1NEdRU0hrZlkyeDRfMTJfM jVfbC5qcGc=

9800 16xAF
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA0NjgwOTI1NEdRU0hrZlkyeDRfMTJfM jZfbC5qcGc=

They look damn near identical to me, but I dont see if it says whether it's performance or quality.

[kyleb]

check the article at beyond3d for some nice af tests too. it is the same stuff we get with the r300. :)