PDA

View Full Version : NVIDIA traps ATI?


Pages : [1] 2 3

sc_sc0
03-06-03, 02:26 PM
Remember Intel's crush campaign. this looks like similar to it.

While 9800Pro was good improvement. it didn't live up
to hype showing not much breathing room in 0.15 tech.

Watch out for NV35 (Return of King) to take performance
crown around late April or early May. Also further
driver improvement 10-25% will take ATI products out
in all segments.

ATI nows learn pain of going thru 0.13 process and
will not able to introduct sig new product before 2004.
This will allow NVDA to capture more market share
and lock up OEM market.

Remember. finanicial resources are key to success
in semiconductor industry.

Uttar
03-06-03, 02:44 PM
The R400 delay seems to mostly come from Low K, AFAIK.
ATI is having no problem at all with 0.13, and will probably launch a 0.13 R350 in H2 2003.


Uttar

Falkentyne
03-06-03, 02:54 PM
Cool it with the nazi crap. This thread is in the Nvidia group and is perfectly on topic here. If you want it deleted, go to the ATI group and go whine there. Thanks.

And BTW, you _do_ know that a 256 bit bus on the GF FX will double the bandwidth, right? Even a "classic" GF FX with a 256 bit bus, running at 400/400 has faster clocks than the R9800, and, just by the specs alone, should outperform it. Did this ever occur to you, or did you magically forget?

Sorry bro, but Nvidia is right on the mark on this one!

The R9700 has a 315 core, 620 memory. The R9800 has a 380 core, 680 memory. (someone correct me if i'm wrong). That's NOT a very big increase on RAM speed ! The Ti 4400 - Ti 4600 was a bigger RAM memory spread ! (100 mhz!). The core has a nice boost, though usually, DDR speed has been more important than core speed, traditionally. Don't know if that changes with a 256 bit bus or not, though.

*I* am disappointed in the 128 MB R9800 pro. I expected a bit faster clocks for a 6 month refresh. Sure it has other improvements, but so did the GF4 Ti 4600 over the GF3 Ti 500, for example. (and much faster clocks).

So, 256 bit bus, with at LEAST 400/800 clocks (and probably higher) should give Nvidia back the crown. And Beware a NV35 running at 500/1000 (!!). A card THAT fast would beat the 9800 pro so silly that it wouldn't be funny. (380 / 680 vs 500/1000, both 256 bit? next.)

Uttar
03-06-03, 02:56 PM
The NV35 won't compete with the 128MB Radeon 9800 Pro

It'll compete with the mythic 256MB DDR-II Radeon 9800 Pro, with 30GB/s of memory bandwidth.

Now, I truly think the NV35 will win this fight. But saying it'll crush it is truly wrong.
And then there's the 0.13 Radeon 9800 Pro, coming barely a few months later.
There, the NV35 will get beaten.
But the real question, at that time, will be whether nVidia got a refresh for the NV35. Who knows... Probably not anything major, anyway...


Uttar

gokickrocks
03-06-03, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by sc_sc0
Remember Intel's crush campaign. this looks like similar to it.

While 9800Pro was good improvement. it didn't live up
to hype showing not much breathing room in 0.15 tech.


the 9800 pro's overclock more than the 9700s...so i dont know where you got the "not much breathing room" from


Watch out for NV35 (Return of King) to take performance
crown around late April or early May.


so how long have you been an engineer at TSMC?


Also further
driver improvement 10-25% will take ATI products out
in all segments.

so how long have you been a programmer at nvidia?


ATI nows learn pain of going thru 0.13 process and
will not able to introduct sig new product before 2004.
This will allow NVDA to capture more market share
and lock up OEM market.


like uttar says, its the low-k that ati AND nvidia are having trouble with...the switch to .13 micron seems to be pretty smooth for ati so far


Remember. finanicial resources are key to success
in semiconductor industry.

well bitboys seems to be getting lots of financial backing for their research...but they dont seem successful now do they? financial resources will only take you so far

gokickrocks
03-06-03, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Falkentyne
Cool it with the nazi crap. This thread is in the Nvidia group and is perfectly on topic here. If you want it deleted, go to the ATI group and go whine there. Thanks.

And BTW, you _do_ know that a 256 bit bus on the GF FX will double the bandwidth, right? Even a "classic" GF FX with a 256 bit bus, running at 400/400 has faster clocks than the R9800, and, just by the specs alone, should outperform it. Did this ever occur to you, or did you magically forget?

Sorry bro, but Nvidia is right on the mark on this one!

The R9700 has a 315 core, 620 memory. The R9800 has a 380 core, 680 memory. (someone correct me if i'm wrong). That's NOT a very big increase on RAM speed ! The Ti 4400 - Ti 4600 was a bigger RAM memory spread ! (100 mhz!). The core has a nice boost, though usually, DDR speed has been more important than core speed, traditionally. Don't know if that changes with a 256 bit bus or not, though.

*I* am disappointed in the 128 MB R9800 pro. I expected a bit faster clocks for a 6 month refresh. Sure it has other improvements, but so did the GF4 Ti 4600 over the GF3 Ti 500, for example. (and much faster clocks).

So, 256 bit bus, with at LEAST 400/800 clocks (and probably higher) should give Nvidia back the crown. And Beware a NV35 running at 500/1000 (!!). A card THAT fast would beat the 9800 pro so silly that it wouldn't be funny. (380 / 680 vs 500/1000, both 256 bit? next.)

no one is doubting that if the nv35 has a 256bit bus that it would be fast...however people's complaints are against the AA algorithim

Uttar
03-06-03, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by emailthatguy
even if your right, none of these guys will get it. youll just get flamed unfortunately. its really what the nvnews forums are all about sadly

Did I flame him? No, I didn't. And if anyone had the feeling I did, then please explain me how I could make sure no one gets that feeling next time.

Others did flame him, yes. But I just wanted to make clear that not everyone flame for that.

Also, there are the Catalyst 3.2 rumors - they don't come from very reliable sources, but they seem to be very insistant and come from many people. So the 128MB R9800P might be better than what most think.

No matter what, the NV35 is an impressive product. Rumors NV35 specs:
- 130M transistors on 0.13 Copper
- 600Mhz core
- 500Mhz GDDR-II memory on a 256-bit memory interface
- True 8x1
- 99% NV30 bugs fixed
- General optimizations
- Minor new features

And the best of it all:
- Taped-out *early* January

Considering 120 days from tape-out to launch, the NV30 will be launched around the 10th of May, with availability in early June.
I'd love to get some more info on this, but I fear there's no way to be sure right now...

gokickrocks: Not really true that the 9800P overclocks more than the 9700s. In %, it actually got slightly less breathing room. Even considering that, however, it does have an impressive overclocking potential, and bashing the 9800P overclocking potential thus makes no sense.
Also, nVidia and ATI had no problems with Low K at all. It's just that TSMC is having a *lot* of problems with it :)

Note also that it's absolutely *impossible* to get any info on whether the NV35's AA algorithm has been improved.
It does sound quite likely, however. The reason the NV30 AA was so bad is that the NV30 is really a workstation card and they didn't put much on FSAA quality because of that. The NV35 is truly a gamer's card.


Uttar

Solomon
03-06-03, 03:21 PM
Why are people saying NV35, April/May ? ? ? It's not going to appear that early. We are talking September/October.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

sc_sc0
03-06-03, 03:49 PM
learn lessons of how Intel beat craps out of competition
in early 80's

it's not about some minor improvement in AA performance.

It's about..

-- design wins (ability to ship million of units in low cost
volume)
-- marketing and brand name
-- support
-- infrastructure and tools (Cg is real tool, RenderMonkey is crap
not really tool at all).
-- development support
-- cash to support rapid rollout

Fact is Fx5200 will beat out crap of ATI 9200 in mass
volume OEM design wins. NV35 will be real performance
winner and silence ATI fan boys.

ATI has not proven it can design 100Million transitor design
in 0.13 process. it's entirely different design challenge.
NVDA engineers are fools nor incompetent.

NVDA has 6-9 month lead in 0.13 production.

Think in strategic terms not who gets lead in next month.

StealthHawk
03-06-03, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
No matter what, the NV35 is an impressive product. Rumors NV35 specs:
- 130M transistors on 0.13 Copper
- 600Mhz core
- 500Mhz GDDR-II memory on a 256-bit memory interface
- True 8x1
- 99% NV30 bugs fixed
- General optimizations
- Minor new features



actually, no it isn't. specs mean absolutely nothing. add to the fact that nvidia hasn't been entirely forthcoming with the truth with the NV30 specs. how do we really know that NV35 is what it should be until testing is done?

will NV35 still have weak FSAA? will Balanced still degrade IQ and Aggressive do so even further? these are questions that need to be answered. all the speed in the world doesn't matter to me or most people if the IQ is lacking.

what about PS2.0 speed? currently the NV30 performs horribly, horribly slow.

MikeC
03-06-03, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
will Balanced still degrade IQ and Aggressive do so even further?

I'm glad somebody noticed :) I'll be re-installing my GF4 Ti over the weekend, but I don't recall aniso filtering looking like either of those settings.

Dazz
03-06-03, 04:35 PM
Havenít any of you learnt your lesson? Don't believe in the hype as you will only be disappointed!!!

StealthHawk
03-06-03, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by MikeC
I'm glad somebody noticed :) I'll be re-installing my GF4 Ti over the weekend, but I don't recall aniso filtering looking like either of those settings.

it definitely doesn't for the gf3! as seen here: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7245

the filtering pattern actually changed for the gfFX compared to the gf3/4 depending on whether you use Application/Balanced/Aggressive. performance changes based on setting for the gf3/4, but the MIP MAP pattern is the same.

digitalwanderer
03-06-03, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by sc_sc0
learn lessons of how Intel beat craps out of competition
in early 80's

it's not about some minor improvement in AA performance.

It's about..

-- design wins (ability to ship million of units in low cost
volume)
-- marketing and brand name
-- support
-- infrastructure and tools (Cg is real tool, RenderMonkey is crap
not really tool at all).
-- development support
-- cash to support rapid rollout

Fact is Fx5200 will beat out crap of ATI 9200 in mass
volume OEM design wins. NV35 will be real performance
winner and silence ATI fan boys.

ATI has not proven it can design 100Million transitor design
in 0.13 process. it's entirely different design challenge.
NVDA engineers are fools nor incompetent.

NVDA has 6-9 month lead in 0.13 production.

Think in strategic terms not who gets lead in next month.

I'm thinking in realistic terms about the next year or so of ATI dominating, but time will tell which of us is right.

BTW-What does your nick stand for? I'm really curious. :)

Solomon
03-06-03, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
No matter what, the NV35 is an impressive product. Rumors NV35 specs:
- 130M transistors on 0.13 Copper
- 600Mhz core
- 500Mhz GDDR-II memory on a 256-bit memory interface
- True 8x1
- 99% NV30 bugs fixed
- General optimizations
- Minor new features

And the best of it all:
- Taped-out *early* January

No offense, but where do you get your information from? 600MHz core? Heh. The current NV30 is having a hard enough time as it is on 500MHz. If 500MHz was a walk in the park, their workstation cards would be equipped with 500MHz. The workstation cards are basically what is the most stable speed the current architecture is capable of as the workstation cards need to be the most stable due to their usage and environment. I see the NV35 like this, 525MHz core and a 256-bit bus. It's kinda of comical to see all these "specs" of future products. Sorry to burst your bubble. No card ever released from Nvidia has been released within a 3 month gap. Nvidia announced more cards today. Give it another 6 months to 7 months before we see their next card. So the NV35 will be out September/October time frame. Not June... That's very unrealistic.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

MikeC
03-06-03, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Dazz
Havenít any of you learnt your lesson? Don't believe in the hype as you will only be disappointed!!!

And hence the reason I put together an image quality comparison.

emailthatguy
03-06-03, 05:14 PM
you got a point there soloman

Solomon
03-06-03, 05:31 PM
I mean seriously. The NV35 is some how going to use a magical new fabrication process to run at 600MHz? Is TMSC doing something special for the NV35? The NV30 and the NV35 will all be using the same fabrication from the same company. Kinda of odd that the NV35 is capable of a 600MHz core clock when the NV30 can't hit 500MHz relatively stable easily. :eek: :eek:

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

emailthatguy
03-06-03, 05:33 PM
new packaging? by that i mean how the wafer gets connected to the pins. i know that has a ton to do w/ how much you can throw at a chip and is often a very overlooked issue.

gokickrocks
03-06-03, 05:35 PM
if it was some new change at TSMC, we would see it in the 5800s (non-ultras), cause they have not made a public appearance yet

jbirney
03-06-03, 05:45 PM
Uttar,

that was first pass on the NV35. I imagine it will take a respin or two. Dont count your chickens before they are hatched :)

Hellbinder
03-06-03, 05:47 PM
No matter what, the NV35 is an impressive product. Rumors NV35 specs:
- 130M transistors on 0.13 Copper
- 600Mhz core
- 500Mhz GDDR-II memory on a 256-bit memory interface
- True 8x1
- 99% NV30 bugs fixed
- General optimizations
- Minor new features

Solomon and others.. I have known about this for weeks and weeks now. 600mhz is the TARGET clock speed. However indications are they are nt even close to that for production silicon.

muzz
03-06-03, 05:57 PM
Whoever said the 6 month late NV30 was a workstation card?
That would mean they were over 1 year game card to GC?
I don't think so, what I think happened was it wasn't as good as planned, and they knew it early on. hence the RUSH on the NV35.


Exactly WHEN was the 4600 released?

Notice how I use the terms "I think"
Some of you guys should practice a little of that.... it causes less flame wars( I think......;) ), and you get more accomplished when a thread stays open then when the mods slam it shut.

Solomon
03-06-03, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by muzz
Whoever said the 6 month late NV30 was a workstation card?
That would mean they were over 1 year game card to GC?
I don't think so, what I think happened was it wasn't as good as planned, and they knew it early on. hence the RUSH on the NV35.

Huh? I'm not sure if you are referring to what I said. What I mean is that Nvidia wouldn't release the Quadro FX at 400MHz if it wasn't completely stable. I was questioning the 600MHz core spec on the NV35. Their workstation cards are usually based off the consumer core in some aspects. If the FX was a breeze at 500MHz, You would of probably seen the Quadro FX at 500MHz. That's all I was saying. Then I said that the NV35 would have a realistic core of maybe 525MHz when released in Sept/Oct considering what's been going on with the NV30.

Hellbinder, I'm a realist I guess. Projected specs, rumors and stuff I usually never believe any of it. As the projected date of release. I'm finding it extremely hard to swallow. I'm not saying what you no is wrong. I just go with what I see from their past experiences. :D

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

muzz
03-06-03, 06:14 PM
Nope Solomon I wasn't referring to anything you said.... UTTAR said that near the end of his post.. I should have stated that sorry bruh.:D