Anyone Else dissapointed with the 9800 Pro ?

[Solomon]

Remove all the PR marketing and what is left with the Radeon 9800 Pro? Nothing but a more optimized core. Would you seriously pay $400.00 for a more optimized core over the previous Radeon 9700?

I wish the 9800 Pro was more then just a higher clocked 9700 Pro. Sure it has a little more optimization fixes. But will you really care when your previous 9700 Pro can do 110fps while the 9800 Pro can do 123fps? I mean seriously.

The only good thing I can think of about the 9800 Pro is it will drive the 9700 non-pro and 9700 pro prices down. Which is good, because Sapphire still sells non-pro 9700's with the same memory as the 9700 pro and even the 9800 pro for around $265.00. The 9700 non-pro will be the card to own IMO for the best price to performance.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

[shmall]

... I only bought a 9700pro a month ao anyway (after being an Nvidia fan for so long).... and will be waiting for the R400 before I change my card :)


Simon.

[muzz]

I'm happy to see that the benchmarks showed an increase at the same speed.......
I am not thrilled with the clockspeeds at all, even though there is an increase in performance, I think there could have been more with higher clocked memory at least.
If it can be overclocked to 450/380 consistent it will be a pretty nice card, considering the 9700p can usually do 430 np(with GOOD cooling- I've seen over 500 with XTREME cooling, but the 380 is a little tougher....it has been done but not consistently).
It is an increase in performance, but I am awaiting the 256 variant to see what the added mem BW ( including latency penalty) does to the performance....my GUESS is it will just be clocked a little higher on the core, which will probably just be speed binned parts.

Overall I like it, it IS faster, and does more things, and is more efficient.. but TBO was hoping for a little more out of it..... not sure drivers are going to do too much for it, although there are differences so who knows....
All i DO know is I am NOT an engineer.... heheheh

[Solomon]

You got a point Muzz,

If they ramped up the memory speed with different memory, It would be a nice touch. It will be interesting to see what the 256Mb version brings to the table. Hopefully they will do something with the memory speed.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

[jbirney]

Anyone Else dissapointed with the 9800 Pro ?

eh?

I guess it depends on what your were expecting. I was not expecting much. And it seems to live up to its claims. It was not ever talked about to be anything more than a speed bumbed tweaked version of the R300. And considering its "out" about 6 months after the R9700 there is not a lot you can do ASIC wise in 6 months other than twaek stuff. Besides with the DDR2 256mb version we may see it strech its legs abit more.

Also we seem to have gotten use to this trend.
GF2 -> GF2-Ultra

GF3 -> GF3TI -> GF4

[ReDeeMeR]

Well it really doesnt look like the next big bang, but the more they keep makin the lower the prices will be for the previous gen stuff and that's good, more and more ppl will have DX9 tech.

They definately could have improved the core more as the bandwith is an overkill even on 9700.

Guess I'll be waiting for a game that screams for an upgrade and I'll get whatever will be fastets then either 9800 or Nv35 :D

[muzz]

I agree jb , but it doesn't hurt to HOPE for more. I mean supposedly there are much higher clocked memory available, but MuFu has pointed out that the PCB they use( P142 or something. I dunno the name of it) is not sufficient for very high clocks( I THINK he said 380 or something was close to it's ceiling for signal integrity)... I dunno what I expected with the info I had about that limitation TBO..
Maybe I was just thinking ( without REALLY considering the cost/worth factor) they would utilize a new pcb design in the case of the highly clocked ram I was hoping for...

In other words I guess my brain just went into a meltdown.....:D

But in reality is is not a bad bump in performance.... just not what I had hoped for ( even with me being blind for a moment..;) )

[The Baron]

Everybody forgets that ATI skipped R250 in order to make R300 as good as it was...

Anyway.. it's a slightly faster R300. I don't think drivers will help this sucker too much--the R300 drivers are quite good right now and those improvements mean that the R350 is probably using 5% less than the percentage that the R300 is using of its total theoretical performance (since that's not clear AT ALL, if R300 uses 95% of its total possible performance, R350 is using 90% right now).

ATI will probably grow into R350 when it switches to 256 megs and DDR2 in H2. But, nobody knows when that's going to be, and if NV35 is half as good as what people are saying (like Anand), the current R350 is going to be in for a bumpy ride.

[Sazar]

everybody and their pet pooch knew this was a refresh product.. and as such I am pretty happy with the results so far... and also very happy that my current gpu is not likely to be obsolete for at least 1 more full year lol.. which is why I bought the damn thing... to last me around 2 years... :)

concerning the performance of the card... well its AA and FSAA performance is ridiculously good.. especially when compared with the gf FX... and overall... I am really amazed at how much ati have squeezed out of this video card in comparison to the nv30 gf FX 5800//ultra...

can't say I am disappointed.. the card did everything I expected of it... can't call that a disappointment now...

unlike the other video card which was recently reviewed...

:rolleyes:

[UDawg]

Ya I think the technology we saw from the 9700pro that wowed us isn't here in the 9800pro. I still like the card but the 9700pro was such a huge jump in perforance and technology that it made the 9800pro hard to live up to it's older brother. So with the same core it stands to reason that the 9800pro would not be a huge jump like the 9700pro but I am not all that knowledgable about graphic cards technology so ignore me. All in all, faster is better. More is good. and I still like pudding.:D

I just know I like my 9700pro and wont make a move till next winter.

[Sazar]

its a refresh lol... what did you expect ?

[CurtMan]

If you looked to upgrade from a 9700 Pro, then the 9800 Pro probably looks dissapointing. From any other card other than a DX9 Radeon 9X00 card, the 9800 Pro looks more attractive than anything else on the market. This is a refresh card, I think it succeeds at what ATI tried to accomplish with it.

[5150 Joker]

Originally posted by Solomon
Remove all the PR marketing and what is left with the Radeon 9800 Pro? Nothing but a more optimized core. Would you seriously pay $400.00 for a more optimized core over the previous Radeon 9700?

I wish the 9800 Pro was more then just a higher clocked 9700 Pro. Sure it has a little more optimization fixes. But will you really care when your previous 9700 Pro can do 110fps while the 9800 Pro can do 123fps? I mean seriously.

The only good thing I can think of about the 9800 Pro is it will drive the 9700 non-pro and 9700 pro prices down. Which is good, because Sapphire still sells non-pro 9700's with the same memory as the 9700 pro and even the 9800 pro for around $265.00. The 9700 non-pro will be the card to own IMO for the best price to performance.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

You're viewing it as if the card is targetted at 9700 pro owners which it is not. It's a refresh, thus you should not expect something entirely new and you cannot tell me the F-buffer isn't a very nice improvement to the core as well as the increased compression. This will give people who were holding off a very good reason to upgrade.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by 5150 Joker
You're viewing it as if the card is targetted at 9700 pro owners which it is not. It's a refresh, thus you should not expect something entirely new and you cannot tell me the F-buffer isn't a very nice improvement to the core as well as the increased compression. This will give people who were holding off a very good reason to upgrade.

not many people understand that concept though... a lot of people WERE holding over... first for the gf FX and then for the r350... now they have a more powerful gpu for the same price... why not upgrade ?

[OICAspork]

Originally posted by Solomon
Remove all the PR marketing and what is left with the Radeon 9800 Pro? Nothing but a more optimized core. Would you seriously pay $400.00 for a more optimized core over the previous Radeon 9700?

Whoa, a comment like that from someone that puts '*********.com' in his title is disturbing... as I'd expect you to know better. First of all, I think you were expecting way too much, I think if you asked someone at ATI if the 9800 was targeted at 9700 owners, they'd burst out laughing. None-the-less... my opinion is, looking at the early overclocking tests, ATI looked at the 9800... they looked at the GFFX... and they set their clock core accordingly. If the GFFX had offered more performance, then they would have bumped those speeds up. It is also possible that ATI is speed binning the highest clocking chips for the launch of the NV35.

[Solomon]

Originally posted by Sazar
its a refresh lol... what did you expect ?

I was looking for a jack in the memory area mostly. A 30Mhz increase doesn't seem all to thrilling! I guess my expectations were high on this card because of the past with ATi's agressive nature with Nvidia. I just never saw ATi with a "refresher" really, because it was constantly playing catch up.

I guess I got used to the fact that ATi was just churning faster and faster products out quicker. Now that the 9800 Pro is out I was expecting the same jump in terms of "offering". I guess if the memory was at 800MHz it would make me impressed. I'm very anal about these things! Hehehehe.

Someone mentioned that the 256Mb Pro version is going to be on different style PCB? Maybe that version will kick up the memory speed?

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Solomon
I was looking for a jack in the memory area mostly. A 30Mhz increase doesn't seem all to thrilling! I guess my expectations were high on this card because of the past with ATi's agressive nature with Nvidia. I just never saw ATi with a "refresher" really, because it was constantly playing catch up.

I guess I got used to the fact that ATi was just churning faster and faster products out quicker. Now that the 9800 Pro is out I was expecting the same jump in terms of "offering". I guess if the memory was at 800MHz it would make me impressed. I'm very anal about these things! Hehehehe.

Someone mentioned that the 256Mb Pro version is going to be on different style PCB? Maybe that version will kick up the memory speed?

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

the 256mb version will be ddr2 per the specs and have around 400/460mhz clocks... maybe you will get all excited then ?

considering the basic 9800pro... look @ the stock card v/s the STOCK (meaning available on market w/o overclocks) gf FX card... there is no comparison...

then again some people (perhaps tyan ?) will set up a nice design with better cooling and better memory and ramp up the clocks... looking @ the oc's anand and kyle were able to get... I am sure there is a little headroom left in the card...

[Solomon]

Originally posted by OICAspork
Whoa, a comment like that from someone that puts '*********.com' in his title is disturbing... as I'd expect you to know better. First of all, I think you were expecting way too much, I think if you asked someone at ATI if the 9800 was targeted at 9700 owners, they'd burst out laughing. None-the-less... my opinion is, looking at the early overclocking tests, ATI looked at the 9800... they looked at the GFFX... and they set their clock core accordingly. If the GFFX had offered more performance, then they would have bumped those speeds up. It is also possible that ATI is speed binning the highest clocking chips for the launch of the NV35.

You're missing the point I'm trying to portray. The PR at ATi was pimping the "next gen" as, "More Power", "More Realism", etc... When you are used to the previous products you get a sense that you seem to believe them. The 8500 was o.k., the 9700 just blew everyone away. Then you get the sense that the next product would give you the sense of the same increase in performance. The core speed. That was given. I knew that was going to be around that speed or the 400MHz mark. It's the memory speed that seemed a little slow in my books. So yeah, I was expecting a little more "newer" use of components.

Maybe the 256Mb Pro version will have different timings.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Solomon
You're missing the point I'm trying to portray. The PR at ATi was pimping the "next gen" as, "More Power", "More Realism", etc... When you are used to the previous products you get a sense that you seem to believe them. The 8500 was o.k., the 9700 just blew everyone away. Then you get the sense that the next product would give you the sense of the same increase in performance. The core speed. That was given. I knew that was going to be around that speed or the 400MHz mark. It's the memory speed that seemed a little slow in my books. So yeah, I was expecting a little more "newer" use of components.

Maybe the 256Mb Pro version will have different timings.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

lol... the MORE's came about as a dig @ nvidia's pr... take it as such... :)

concerning the rest... yah I spose it was expected to be around the 400 mhz area.. but perhaps costs and yields factored in :)

i mean if they went to 10 layer pcb.. that is extra costs as is...

[The Baron]

the 256mb version will be ddr2 per the specs and have around 400/460mhz clocks... maybe you will get all excited then ?Well... *enters Solomon-Thinking Mode*

If NV35 comes out and is 575/575 with a 256-bit memory bus, with a 256MB version probably coming a few months after launch, I don't think I'll be too excited over a 256MB R350 in July or August... Anyway, at this point for today's games, a 256MB card is probably a bit of overkill (remember the original 128 versus 64 meg debate? ;) ).

[Solomon]

Originally posted by The Baron
Well... *enters Solomon-Thinking Mode*

If NV35 comes out and is 575/575 with a 256-bit memory bus, with a 256MB version probably coming a few months after launch, I don't think I'll be too excited over a 256MB R350 in July or August... Anyway, at this point for today's games, a 256MB card is probably a bit of overkill (remember the original 128 versus 64 meg debate? ;) ).

Hehehehe. :-p Don't enter my thinking mode!!!!! :D

With the regards, will I be happy? I was expecting that from the get go actually. Usually "refreshers" use the fastest memory that is available on the market with the current core optimized. That's what Nvidia did with the GeForce 2 Ultra. It was expensive.. Yes.. But it utilized the fastest memory available. From going by past experiences. I was assuming the 9800 Pro would of done the same. Now reading what everyone is now saying on the 256Mb version. FIC released a little teaser on their PR page that is now removed that the 256Mb version will be clocked at 400Mhz and have DDRII at 460Mhz or (920MHz). NOW!!! that is what I call a refresher. The 128Mb version just doesn't say, "Nice..." it screams to me, "Well o.k." Hehehe.

Yeah, I still remember that debate Baron. I think it still applies today that 64 vs 128mb. Only when FSAA is used you see the difference in (numbers). But I think people are holding off for the 256Mb version is not really the DDR size, but the speed this card will have.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

[Solomon]

If you read the reactions over at Rage3D, a dedicated ATi fan site. You will see that most of them have the same reactions to the Radeon 9800 Pro 128Mb. Most of them want the 256Mb because it will be clocked higher.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33670787

:D

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Solomon
If you read the reactions over at Rage3D, a dedicated ATi fan site. You will see that most of them have the same reactions to the Radeon 9800 Pro 128Mb. Most of them want the 256Mb because it will be clocked higher.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33670787

:D

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

well the point remains that the product is a refresh of the r300... there is no point to upgrade the 9700pro to the 9800pro... if you have the former.. there is no point to upgrade...

[The Baron]

Solomon, here's question number 2 about the 256 megs. Will bandwidth once again become the factor that hinders performance?

Seems to me that when you increase memory, you're going to have to increase bandwidth as well in order to make efficient use of that memory--if it's an increase of 80/160 Mhz, that doesn't seem like that big of an increase.

So, folks, how big of a factor do you think bandwidth will be? The same will probably apply to NV35 if it has a 256 meg version, so I'm going to bet that (assuming NV35 has a 256-bit memory bus) it's going to come down to a battle of memory speeds and compression efficiency...

[Skynet]

You're missing the point I'm trying to portray. The PR at ATi was pimping the "next gen" as, "More Power", "More Realism", etc... When you are used to the previous products you get a sense that you seem to believe them. The 8500 was o.k., the 9700 just blew everyone away. Then you get the sense that the next product would give you the sense of the same increase in performance. The core speed. That was given. I knew that was going to be around that speed or the 400MHz mark. It's the memory speed that seemed a little slow in my books. So yeah, I was expecting a little more "newer" use of components.
I am a little surprised to read this coming from you. Of course the 9700 was a giant leap up from the 8500. As has been pointed out, ATI skipped over the R250 and went straight to R300. And remember you are NOT going to see a generation leap every 6-8 months. The R300 tech will be the foundation for ATI for at least another 6 months and so it should be. The next real generation leap will be the R400/NV40 which is DX10 etc. et. all.

To say that the 9800 is a let-down confuses me. It is not a let-down it is a nice refresh and in fact brings more to the table than many refreshes Nvidia and ATI had. The NV30 is also a giant leap up from the GF4, just not the leap they really needed. Do you expect Nvidia's NV35 to take the same leap as the NV30 did over the GF4 or will you be dissapointed if the NV35 is an NV30 with added features and a higher clock?