"American" atrocities against Iraqis...

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Saddam is at it again and now he is really asking for it. Any trace of "honor" this idiot might have ever had just flew out the window. Guess what? This idiot is dressing his troops up (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80332,00.html) to look like US and UK soldiers so they can commit atrocities and war crimes against Iraqis and pass the blame onto us. I guess this is his last ditch effort to try and make the Iraqi people fight the very men who will liberate them. He can't convice them to do it, so he has to trick them into doing so. How the hell did this guy ever get any of these uniforms? Oh, I hope he dies the most brutal and painful of a death that our boys can inflict upon him. Man, I really want this idiot dead:mad:

[Cereal-Killer]

Well, you can still identify the Iraqis by their bushy mustaches, hehe :D

[LORD-eX-Bu]

or their AKs:D Or maybe by the large group of US and UK soldiers that has a unusually high concentration of Arab men:p

[netviper13]

Smart move strategically for him, stupid move morally.

The guy has no integrity at all, and if the only way he can sway world opinion is by hiding his weapons and trying to make Americans look like civillian-killers, then he's fairly incapable as a leader. I guess he neglected to read Sun Tzu in war college ;)

[Sazar]

propoganda has been used since ancient times... this is no different...

however this does not discount the fact that civilians have been hurt by 'coalition' force's errant missles/bombings... it happens... colateral damage I spose... but to think that people will now dismiss any 'atrocity' as a work of saddam is also not good...

this could work both ways I spose...

[LORD-eX-Bu]

umm... no? nobody is saying any atrocities committed by Coalition forces is being dismissed. What is being dismissed and played down is the fact that Saddam is using the Iraqi people as human shields and forcing our forces into situations in which they will be forced to kill civillians. See, nobody looks at the measures that our forces take to minimize civilian casualties, and nobody looks at how Saddam is going to murder his fellow Iraqis. All you guys look at is occasional incidents in which a few innocent people die and blow the situation way out of proportion. Very one sided, you've seen what Hussein is doing, why are you still defending him?

[Sazar]

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
umm... no? nobody is saying any atrocities committed by Coalition forces is being dismissed. What is being dismissed and played down is the fact that Saddam is using the Iraqi people as human shields and forcing our forces into situations in which they will be forced to kill civillians. See, nobody looks at the measures that our forces take to minimize civilian casualties, and nobody looks at how Saddam is going to murder his fellow Iraqis. All you guys look at is occasional incidents in which a few innocent people die and blow the situation way out of proportion. Very one sided, you've seen what Hussein is doing, why are you still defending him?

why are you grouping everybody into one singular group ?

so some people oppose the war and have valid reasons to do so... this does not make them un-patriotic or opposed to security of the nation...

and saddam is doing what he feels he must in order to protect his country...

no one is defending saddam AFAIK... but there are many opposed to the 'war' and to the actions in the middle east as they are taking place right now... troop buildups and the like...

also I am not really in the mood to see the us government gradually turned into an autocracy with bush and his cronies (or the other way round) running the show with their close minded policies... have you seen what bush is doing lately ?

[UDawg]

Bu, you stole my thunder. Well at least I don't have to post it.:D

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by Sazar
why are you grouping everybody into one singular group ?

so some people oppose the war and have valid reasons to do so... this does not make them un-patriotic or opposed to security of the nation...

I am not attacking anyone's views on the war. Nor am I attacking the validity of their arguments.

and saddam is doing what he feels he must in order to protect his country...

Wrong, he is doing whatever he can to stay in power as long as possible. He doesn't give a damn about anyone under him.

no one is defending saddam AFAIK... but there are many opposed to the 'war' and to the actions in the middle east as they are taking place right now... troop buildups and the like...

Which is totally understandable. But, these people are so opposed to this war that they are dismissing all of Hussein's atrocities.

also I am not really in the mood to see the us government gradually turned into an autocracy with bush and his cronies (or the other way round) running the show with their close minded policies... have you seen what bush is doing lately ?

Yes I have seen what he is doing, he is doing his job. The system of checks and balances is working well, and he has not gone over the powers given to him by the constitution. You may not agree with what is going on, but to start labeling his administration or any group that you don't agree with facists or whatnot is pretty unfounded and dumb.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Sazar
also I am not really in the mood to see the us government gradually turned into an autocracy with bush and his cronies (or the other way round) running the show with their close minded policies... have you seen what bush is doing lately ?


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA HAROFLMAOLOL!!!

This is too good. This the same pathetic argument some of us conservatives said about Impeached President Clinton.
They said Clinton was going to suspend the elections because of y2k so he could remain president as long as he so wishes and a bunch of other wack minded drivle. My how things go in a cycle.


Thanks for a good laugh. :D

[Sazar]

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu

Wrong, he is doing whatever he can to stay in power as long as possible. He doesn't give a damn about anyone under him.
[/B]

thats effectively what I am saying...

by 'protecting' he stays in power...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
HAROFLMAOLOL!!!

This is too good. This the same pathetic argument some of us conservatives said about Impeached President Clinton.
They said Clinton was going to suspend the elections because of y2k so he could remain president as long as he so wishes and a bunch of other wack minded drivle. My how things go in a cycle.


Thanks for a good laugh.

you have obviously just read all about the patriot act (pt.1) and are brushing up on what the patriot act (pt.2) will entail and are overjoyed by the extremely liberal law which will have no impact on us citizens...

:rolleyes:

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html

to give a brief idea of WHY people do not like this law...

http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:h6BC-jamvr4C:www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/lawsregs/patriot.pdf+patriot+act&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

for the 'original' text if you want to go through it...

[t6_shadow]

"Saddam is at it again and now he is really asking for it. Any trace of "honor" this idiot might have ever had just flew out the window. Guess what? This idiot is dressing his troops up to look like US and UK soldiers so they can commit atrocities and war crimes against Iraqis and pass the blame onto us. I guess this is his last ditch effort to try and make the Iraqi people fight the very men who will liberate them. He can't convice them to do it, so he has to trick them into doing so. How the hell did this guy ever get any of these uniforms? Oh, I hope he dies the most brutal and painful of a death that our boys can inflict upon him. Man, I really want this idiot dead."

Did this really surprise anyone? If so wake the hell up. I knew PERSONALLY as in I am friends with nemerous Iraqi citizens. One of which lived in one of those villages that was gassed. He went away to visit some friends, came back and everyone was dead. If you ask any Iraqis (free one that are not in danger) what they think should be done with Saddam they will tell you he should die.

[Mod]

BTW, I read several times that the people targeted to be poisoned were curdish, which aren't considered part of Iraqi nation. So, in this way Saddam haven't poisoned Iraqi people. Is this true ?

[LORD-eX-Bu]

yes and no. He is still targetting the kurds, but his special group that he is outfitting to look like our soldiers is also launching reprisals against Iraqi citizens.

[1stFlight]

First here's my standing

1) I support our troops, many of them are friends of mine

2) I do not support the war, the arguements for it are far too weak. I cannot forget the horror of seeing what dead and injured human beings looks like (no never seen any freshly killed in case you all are wondering) But there's nothing like seeing an Army Ranger come home after getting a foot blown off by a landmine. Or the many from the Gulf War 1 that came home with various still uncured neuromuscular problems that have had many good troops reduced to pain wracked homebodies.

3) Now the uniform issues, I'm wondering why this comes up from out Intel sources who thus far have been worthless. (note: they haven't found even 1 WMD in Iraq) Given that Bush has kept us out of the Internation Criminal Courts (thinking ahead maybe), and we are actively torturing prisoners, this doesn't look good for the home team. I'm really concerned how far we've fallen during the era of our worst President.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Okay, so please show me where and how we are actively torturing prisoners? Please, I am curious.

You dare accuse our troops of war crimes or even hinting that that is what will take place? And you still say you support the troops?

I'm glad you are out of the military, I hope you stay out for good. I would never want to serve in anything with the likes of you.

EDIT: If you consider those stress positions torture, heck, anybody who does, really does, shouldn't even be fighting.

[Mod]

In this kind of situation, people becomes extremely skeptical. So, I guess, people there should really know what (if) Saddam is really doing that, for some reasons. If those pseudo americans ( p-americans, for the sake of simplicity), are really doing their job, they are doing in the country, but I have my doubts.

Doing this job in the city is the same admited that the americans already invaded the Iraqi in very small groups ( Iraqi people are not that stupid). In the country, there is the advantage of making up the excuse that the americans are slowly invading, or just releasing their rage. But the Iraqi country has a very low human density of population, so I don't see the advantage.

I guess that calling US the devil is still the best resource.

What I see this is that Fox news is usually very biased. You know that most governaments uses a very different range of ideas to come up with a conclusion, and this is the same for US. You see, this guy interviewed may be just one possible opinion to be analysed, but not represents the final conclusion.

[Mod]

Let me do some reasoning. The only way tha Saddam has to use WMD against US or Israel ( pointed by Bush as the main targets( is using terrorists, or sending a disguised small team just walking up to Israel ( none of those frontiers are well watched, or there are several survailance holes ).

Other reasoning: American, French, and Brits helped the Iraqis during the 80's with WMD. So, none of them needs proves to know of what Saddam has. The only problem here, is that US can't legimate ( or at least the say so), the war to the public, because proves are classified, so they just show evidence. People outside US are mainly afraid of US's possible abuse of power, that could harm their lifestile.

[1stFlight]

ENv -- terrible things happen in war


And we've already admitted to sending some of our charged (not convicted mind you) prisoners to other countries to be "interrogated"

And do you think we're completely clean? Flashback to Vietnam, we did a lot of things wrong there, again war brings out the worst in humanity, not the best. And I wasn't talking about the "troops" perse, there's more than just American military in the field right now, we've "other" services in the field too, and they're a lot less moral.

If that's how you feel about my service, feel free to to get off your couch and join in my place

P.S. Maybe, just maybe I know more than you and am not so naive because of it

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
Okay, so please show me where and how we are actively torturing prisoners? Please, I am curious.

You dare accuse our troops of war crimes or even hinting that that is what will take place? And you still say you support the troops?

I'm glad you are out of the military, I hope you stay out for good. I would never want to serve in anything with the likes of you.

EDIT: If you consider those stress positions torture, heck, anybody who does, really does, shouldn't even be fighting.

[silence]

guantanamo bay, Cuba.....do you suppose that is done according to Geneva convention?if not, you have war crime.

war crimes aren't just killing of civilians or shelling civilian objects, it's also torture or misstreatment of PoWs, using them for propaganda and many more......

what is done in guantanamo bay is violation of Geneve convention and violation of human rights........

[jnd3]

Originally posted by silence
guantanamo bay, Cuba.....do you suppose that is done according to Geneva convention?if not, you have war crime.

war crimes aren't just killing of civilians or shelling civilian objects, it's also torture or misstreatment of PoWs, using them for propaganda and many more......

what is done in guantanamo bay is violation of Geneve convention and violation of human rights........
I respectfully disagree...

The Geneva Convention (http://193.194.138.190/html/menu3/b/91.htm) on Prisoners of War, Article 4, states, in part:

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
The folks in Gitmo are technically NOT prisoners of war, as they violate at least clauses 2b and 2d (and probably 2a as well) of the aforementioned article.

And they're getting better meals and consideration than they were getting in the caves of Afghanistan. They are, for the most part, being treated as prisoners of war even though (according to Geneva) they're unlawful combatants.

Cheers,
JND

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Sazar
you have obviously just read all about the patriot act (pt.1) and are brushing up on what the patriot act (pt.2) will entail and are overjoyed by the extremely liberal law which will have no impact on us citizens...



Sazar you can make fun of my opinions, make fun of me and make fun of my lack of grammer:D but do not put words into my mouth. You haven't earned that right.

Are you by any chance a Lebratarian?

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Mod
BTW, I read several times that the people targeted to be poisoned were curdish, which aren't considered part of Iraqi nation. So, in this way Saddam haven't poisoned Iraqi people. Is this true ?

Oh so it's ok then. "Ok fellas lets call the whole thing of because the Kurds dont matter". :rolleyes:

[Mod]

Originally posted by UDawg71
Oh so it's ok then. "Ok fellas lets call the whole thing of because the Kurds dont matter". :rolleyes:

Yes, that's what I meant, you understood very well. But, put inside the "...", the Iraqi nationalism. Seriours now, I want to know if he poisoned the muslims. Acording to Vince, at B3B, he did. I would like to know how that happened.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Mod
Yes, that's what I meant, you understood very well. But, put inside the "...", the Iraqi nationalism. Seriours now, I want to know if he poisoned the muslims. Acording to Vince, at B3B, he did. I would like to know how that happened.

Now I am more confused. I know that isn't hard for me but I am.