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View Full Version : Carmack at CES "MS dev tools so much better than Sony's!"


ENU291
01-11-07, 11:26 AM
Read the entire interview HERE (http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200701/N07.0109.1737.15034.htm?Page=3)!

Tygerwoody
01-11-07, 11:33 AM
isn't this common knowledge by now?

|MaguS|
01-11-07, 11:34 AM
isn't this common knowledge by now?

I've said this myself when people questioned me about the tools while I worked at EA.

Bad_Boy
01-11-07, 11:35 AM
isn't this common knowledge by now?
I thought so. Guess not?

Havent devs always said 360 was easier to program for?

Imbroglio
01-11-07, 11:41 AM
yea but he goes further to say that sony's decision to put an asymmetric cpu into their console was a bad decision. if sony decided to improve their development tools he seems to lead that it could come in handy, but as the dev tools stand now and the asymmetric cpu, he just seems not interested to program for the console at all.

i'm getting a kick out of the ps3 fanboys at other forums that are saying Carmack is a moron, lmfao. Atleast it's proving an interesting read.

|MaguS|
01-11-07, 11:49 AM
yea but he goes further to say that sony's decision to put an asymmetric cpu into their console was a bad decision. if sony decided to improve their development tools he seems to lead that it could come in handy, but as the dev tools stand now and the asymmetric cpu, he just seems not interested to program for the console at all.

i'm getting a kick out of the ps3 fanboys at other forums that are saying Carmack is a moron, lmfao. Atleast it's proving an interesting read.

I just think he's overrated, if you read it he also goes on to complain about multicore design in general... too me it just seems like he doesn't want to adapt a new method of programming.

Peoples-Agent
01-11-07, 12:04 PM
I just think he's overrated, if you read it he also goes on to complain about multicore design in general... too me it just seems like he doesn't want to adapt a new method of programming.

I knew you was going to say that.

Still, I don't get why you constantly defend Sony and their POS console.

thor1182
01-11-07, 12:04 PM
I dunno, it seems to me like he is championing the pain of programmers.

I don't think enough people realize the pain that is multicore development. Its very easy to say that the cell can do these high tflops, but who cares if it is too hard to use all that power?

That comment he made about the race condition is a very real and serious problem with multi-threaded programming. I don't think enough people understand that and know what it takes to fix that, and prevent that from happening and still get games out on target.

Imbroglio
01-11-07, 12:05 PM
I just think he's overrated, if you read it he also goes on to complain about multicore design in general... too me it just seems like he doesn't want to adapt a new method of programming.

yea his peak of creativity has definately come and gone, but what i don't understand about his multicore design issues are that he included code for multithreading in his q3 engine, though buggy, it shows he was thinking about it before most even considered the idea of it. he's almost contradicting himself.

|MaguS|
01-11-07, 12:16 PM
I knew you was going to say that.

Still, I don't get why you constantly defend Sony and their POS console.

I love how you take any post of mine and say im denfending Sony when I never even mentioned a console but rather discussed the man himself. Hell earlier I even posted a comment that I agreed with his statement that Sony's tools are not as good as MS's.

toxikneedle
01-11-07, 12:26 PM
I just think he's overrated, if you read it he also goes on to complain about multicore design in general... too me it just seems like he doesn't want to adapt a new method of programming.
I dunno about that, I think Carmack likes challanges every now and then. He did those cell phone games out of nowhere, and those require different methods of programming..... Again this comes down to the simple fact that MS is a software company at heart and Sony is a hardware company.... both will be best at what they are best known for.

OWA
01-11-07, 12:29 PM
From a PC standpoint, this is a little disappointing. That is, if he's really not interested. I was hoping he'd do some games for the PS3 since I figured they'd run better on nvidia based PCs if they were ported (b/c of opengl).

thor1182
01-11-07, 12:32 PM
I think he is still going to do it, but just happy at the state of things.

thor1182
01-11-07, 01:10 PM
and I think that is the crux of what Carmack is driving at. Its a pain in the ass to do, it take a lot of time, and there is no good way to do it. They are getting closer, but people don't realize that it is such a challenge.

|MaguS|
01-11-07, 01:18 PM
and I think that is the crux of what Carmack is driving at. Its a pain in the ass to do, it take a lot of time, and there is no good way to do it. They are getting closer, but people don't realize that it is such a challenge.

His complaint is when developers have to create an engine from scratch which for the most part isn't true anymore. Many games use middleware now, not just for rendering but for all aspects of the game.

thor1182
01-11-07, 01:23 PM
unless you are the ones who make the middle ware like id, Epic, Crytec, and Valve do. I have heard complaints/discussions on this same exact topic from all the major engine writers about the complexity of multicore development and the pains of cross platform development. I know Gabe Newell was not happy about the PS3 design becuase of the amount of extra time it would take to port to the PS3 becuase of the poor dev kits and complex hardware.

Lyme
01-11-07, 02:52 PM
John C in that article says that they will do a release for the 360 and ps3 at the same time. As well from a game engine developer, John C is on the money saying that writing multi-cpu code is a pain, and in that article he says that he would have preferred a faster single core in the 360 rather than three. Sony has simply exaserbated the fact with a number of more cores to deal with. However multiprocessor programming on the 360/ps3 is much easier than the pc for the simple fact that it is a closed system, and in closed systems you don't need to worry about different configurations, etc.
People should not take it as though he is just bashing Sony, however the title of the thread does directly tie to Sony.. but what can you expect.. MS is a software company, and Sony isn't so much.

Marvel_us
01-11-07, 05:40 PM
Multicore is the way the industry is moving though. Carmack needs to stop whining about it. On the other hand you have people like Tim Sweeney who actually want to see more cores and seems to be quite fond of multicore. Heh, just re-watched jakup's 2nd interview the other day and Sweeney spoke on that.:)

I don't think Sony will probably ever catch up with MS's tool development. They may get close but MS will still have an edge. Personally I agree with some of what he's saying about the Cell being a bad design for PS3. They should've picked something with similar power but more familiar and easier on devs. Why would devs want to spend more money/time deving for a more complex system, when they can get similar results in less time on another system? For now it might steer some away but eventually they'll get the hang of it.

saturnotaku
01-11-07, 06:25 PM
Carmack is a very smart man, but he needs to shut his facehole about this whole thing. Like it or lump it, multicore is the way the industry is going. He can either get on board or jump ship. The time he spends pissing and moaning could instead be spent learning to deal with these new architectures.

Rakeesh
01-11-07, 06:48 PM
yea his peak of creativity has definately come and gone, but what i don't understand about his multicore design issues are that he included code for multithreading in his q3 engine, though buggy, it shows he was thinking about it before most even considered the idea of it. he's almost contradicting himself.

He is just saying that its harder to code for the cell than most other multi-core environments. He is also saying that Microsofts XNA is easier than most multi-core environments because of the way they made it (how exactly I don't know as I haven't even looked at it, but it is what he is saying) and therefore he prefers to work with it instead of anything else.

And BTW, he didn't start doing that with Q3 either. Actually the jaguar version of the original doom engine was multi-threaded as I recall, and in one of his spec documents he mentioned about how it could benefit from multiple CPU's unlike other games at the time.

Multicore is the way the industry is moving though. Carmack needs to stop whining about it. On the other hand you have people like Tim Sweeney who actually want to see more cores and seems to be quite fond of multicore. Heh, just re-watched jakup's 2nd interview the other day and Sweeney spoke on that.:)

It doesn't sound to me like he is whining about it, but rather he is trying to petition the hardware developers to be more innovative about their designs so that it isn't so expensive and time consuming for the software developers to make decent bug free games. He is saying Microsoft is heading in the right direction not because of their hardware, but because of the development tools they provide, and he doesn't like the PS3 because it doesn't offer as much as the X360 does in this area.

He has a very good point here, namely because the costs of producing decent games these days is going way up, but the revenue gained isn't. The goal here is to reduce the development costs.