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View Full Version : MaxPC, An illustration of Whats Wrong.


Hellbinder
03-10-03, 05:42 PM
This was PM'd to me by CCCmaurader. So all thanks to him. Its a reply he recieved from the technical editor of MaxPC from a Question sent in about the off numbers in their review of the 9800pro.

Anisotropic filtering…

nVidia has three different performance settings, while ATI has two. ATI’s default is quality vs. performance, which is a compatibility thing for older cards (like the Radeon 8500) that couldn’t use both trilinear filtering and aniso at the same time. It uses the same algorithm for both if the card supports it. nVidia’s uses three different paths through the pipeline depending on the setting in the drivers. It’s default setting is “balanced”. In the future, I’ll probably run the quality nVidia setting, but I didn’t know about it until after that issue went to press. The difference should be less than 5% though.


///Will


--

Technical Editor

Maximum PC

Thus MxPC's FX/9800 comparison was indeed run in ballanced mode for the FX and Quality mode for the 9800pro. Which is undoubtedly being repreated in several other reviews where the numbers seem off or outright Ridiculous.

It Further illustrates that these guys have not one CLUE about the hardware they are testing and Further supports some of DoomTroopers comments about Journalistic integrity.

1. The FX supposedly uses "3 different paths through the pipeline" depending on what mode is selected??

I mean.. what a bunch of total nonsense.. its trying to make it sound like its some special and technical feat to use Bilinear filtering instead of TRilinear.. :rolleyes:

2. ATI’s default is quality vs. performance, which is a compatibility thing for older cards (like the Radeon 8500) that couldn’t use both trilinear filtering and aniso at the same time. It uses the same algorithm for both if the card supports it.

Give me a break.. First of all its not the same algorithm at all. This has been shown by review sites countless times. The R300's Algorithm is able to handle 45' angles just fine. Second its not a "compatability" thing.

Most importantly the idiot does not even understand that the Nvidia Ballanced is nearly the EXACT SAME THING as ATi's performance. Both use Bilinear sampled AF.


3. In the future, I’ll probably run the quality nVidia setting, but I didn’t know about it until after that issue went to press. The difference should be less than 5% though

What??? 5% difference? :rolleyes:

Just another example of how generally speaking Reviewers and editors are biased and uneducated morons. Who form their opinions on whatever Nvidias little PR documents tell them to. None of them even begin to have the technical knowledge to post a real representative review. For which there is no excuse.

Two years ago I had a couple ideas about 3dgraphics, had some opinions etc.. And if you search out my oooold posts you will see that i was not as knowledgable or informed as I am now. What happened?? I went and Read countless articles and White papers, I made Contacts with people in the industry who work for various companies, i even started to do some 3d programming. In other words I Educated, and better Equiped myself for understanding and debating 3D hardware and Graphics. I still have a long way to go, but I am FAR more Equiped than I was.

This is no different than what these reviewers and editors SHOULD be doing at these Review sites and Magazines. Especially the ones that have been there for 2-4 years. Its completely Ridiculous that after a couple years these guys STILL have no clue, and post whatever is spoon Fed them.

Hellbinder
03-10-03, 07:00 PM
The Idiot at MaxPC REplied with this after another Email was sent to him..

ATi is a good company, but nobody would confuse them with nVidia just yet. As you claim ATi's drivers are getting better, but they still pale in comparision to
nVidias. As far as calling me *unfair*, have you ever reviewed a video card? If you had then you would know their is no direct way to compare cards, so as a reviewer we have
to cut some corners. As far as the "famous quote", at the time ATi had no future per say. So it was assumed that nVidia would be the only video card company in high end 3d. Kudos to ATi for catching up, but Nvidia still holds the marketshare advantage over ATi and the NV35 core has enough bells and whistles to put ATi back in the rear view mirror for quite awhile. We try to be fair, but right now nVidia just offers better cards up and down. The 9800PRO is a great card, but with impending driver releases by nVidia it will not have enough to keep the speed crown. Essentially the 9800PRO/GeForceFX will be equal to each other. From now on I will use Quality settings for nVidia as well as ATi, but I still insist the difference will be no larger than 5 percent because of the GeForceFX's advanced Anisotropic filtering Algorithm's.

Just unbelievable... :rolleyes:

MuFu
03-10-03, 08:31 PM
Go grab a beer, dude. :cool:

MuFu.

Nv40
03-10-03, 08:43 PM
hellbinder hes right..

at same 8x settings , NVidia 8x aplication is the same old
anisofiltering of the Geforce4 cards .
its not "adaptive" like the ATI one , what this mean?

contrary to ATI aniso method ,"to filter where we believe it matters"

Nvidia aplication doesnt not select which surfaces
to filter ,meaning that it is done at every angle
from 0 degrees to 360 degress in the same way.

ATi 8x aniso HQ settings only does 8x at where
"ATI feels matters" in these case it seems to be
at 0 and 45 angles. in other angles their pulls the anisoF to
something like 4x/or 2x.

Nvidia balance 8x in AF ,is the adaptive technique of Nvidia ,
and while it may look a slighty better in ATI at 0/45 angles.
in other angles is the other way around.

so as you see is not possible to compare apples vs apples.
but overall the balance in NVIDIA vs HQ ati , from the screenshots
i have seen ,look to be less unfair comparison. both are adaptive.

this problem could be solved easily, ask ATI for a FULL trilinear ANisoFiltereing irrevelant of all angles ,that works full time in
every angle surface . it will lower their performance ,
but they have plenty of bandwidt for it.

MuFu
03-10-03, 08:56 PM
You should join HB for a beer too. :cool:

Gawd, this is a real "Clash of The Titans"... get your extinguishers ready, folks.

MuFu.

gravioli
03-10-03, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by MuFu
You should join HB for a beer too. :cool:

Gawd, this is a real "Clash of The Titans"... get your extinguishers ready, folks.

MuFu.

I think I'll grab a beer, kickback, and watch the carnage. :)

Moo
03-10-03, 10:02 PM
It could be hard to down beers when there's a lot of commodities involved.

i.e. stocks, bribes, ho's, etc.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY YOU NEED THE BOOZE. Hit me with a cold one.

Lezmaka
03-10-03, 11:06 PM
Hellbinder, it's not NV40's fault, really. He suffers from a genetic disease. They're going to start looking for a cure, but unfortunately, it may be a while.

Go here to read more about this terrible disease http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993451

Kruno
03-10-03, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Lezmaka
Hellbinder, it's not NV40's fault, really. He suffers from a genetic disease. They're going to start looking for a cure, but unfortunately, it may be a while.

Go here to read more about this terrible disease http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993451

Remember the time you had 1K posts? :)
Well now you are a lowly squire and I am a high class deviant. :lol:

Hellbinder
03-11-03, 02:46 AM
Nv40, you have absolutly no clue what you are talking about. None of your information is accurate about Nvidia or ATi AF. :rolleyes:

Megatron
03-11-03, 09:27 AM
We try to be fair, but right now nVidia just offers better cards up and down.



They do???? Ummm..yeah ..ok...:rolleyes:

SnakeEyes
03-11-03, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Megatron
We try to be fair, but right now nVidia just offers better cards up and down.



They do???? Ummm..yeah ..ok...:rolleyes:
Never thought I'd be saying this, but OMG, what are they smoking!?! :rolleyes:

I didn't believe it would last when the 9700 came out, but it seems that ATI has done an all around bang up job, and nVidia is grasping at straws right now to make up time, and while they do, they're relying on misleading PR and naive morons like this guy to keep them in the race.

Megatron
03-11-03, 01:28 PM
Yeah the funny part of his statement is the "right now" part.


In the past there were plenty of years where Nvidia did indeed offer the better cards.

In the future this could very well again be the case.


But to say "right now"..is ludicrous. I think this guy needs to set the dial on his time machine to 2003 and join the rest of us.

"right now" the best cards are coming from ATI.

Gar
03-11-03, 01:55 PM
You guys gotta go over to this same thread at rage. Will Smith the editor just responded to HB comments. Looks like he is claiming that he didn't write those emails.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33671843&perpage=20&pagenumber=4

nin_fragile14
03-11-03, 02:06 PM
edit* well it's CCCMaruder who is the idiot... I really wouldn't even see a motivation behind that.

gravioli
03-11-03, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by nin_fragile14
If Hellbinder made that up (which I believe he did), well, that's pretty low... I really wouldn't even see a motivation behind that.

I can't see how Hellbinder would have been motivated to make up something like that, but if he did, "pretty low" is an understatement. I can't comprehend someone making up something like that. Whoever did make up those e-mails is most definitely a pathetic low-life. He/she should do the world a favor and kill themselves.

Edit: The e-mails originated from CCCmaurader according to Hellbinder's first post.....

sebazve
03-11-03, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Nv40
hellbinder hes right..

at same 8x settings , NVidia 8x aplication is the same old
anisofiltering of the Geforce4 cards .
its not "adaptive" like the ATI one , what this mean?

contrary to ATI aniso method ,"to filter where we believe it matters"

Nvidia aplication doesnt not select which surfaces
to filter ,meaning that it is done at every angle
from 0 degrees to 360 degress in the same way.

ATi 8x aniso HQ settings only does 8x at where
"ATI feels matters" in these case it seems to be
at 0 and 45 angles. in other angles their pulls the anisoF to
something like 4x/or 2x.

Nvidia balance 8x in AF ,is the adaptive technique of Nvidia ,
and while it may look a slighty better in ATI at 0/45 angles.
in other angles is the other way around.

so as you see is not possible to compare apples vs apples.
but overall the balance in NVIDIA vs HQ ati , from the screenshots
i have seen ,look to be less unfair comparison. both are adaptive.

this problem could be solved easily, ask ATI for a FULL trilinear ANisoFiltereing irrevelant of all angles ,that works full time in
every angle surface . it will lower their performance ,
but they have plenty of bandwidt for it.


muhahhaahhahha:rolleyes:

kyleb
03-11-03, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Nv40, you have absolutly no clue what you are talking about. None of your information is accurate about Nvidia or ATi AF. :rolleyes:


heck, none of his information is anywhere as accurate as Nvidia's or ATi's AF for that matter. :nana:

The Baron
03-11-03, 05:25 PM
Meh, maybe we should branch out into publishing... ;)

ATI LoVeR 9700
03-11-03, 07:39 PM
I'm with NV40 on this one... We'll have ATi get rid of their awesome Anisotropic Filtering techniques, so it's fair for nVidia! :rolleyes:

It's fair right now buddy! AF vs AF is fair. ATi looks just as good, if not better. I'm all for ATi 16x Performance vs. nVidia 8x Balanced. That's a little unfair to ATi though, their AF looks better...