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SwedX
02-10-07, 02:41 PM
Hello everywon!

My first post here but been a long time lurker so I think it about time to step in to this great place and just say hello and fire off one question I have been wondering about if it's okey!

Have a 6800GT now but will soon upgrade to the supernice 8800GTX so im ready for some serious gaming and the lovely Dx10 and all :D

Annyway been reading on the new AA mode Nvidia have come up with, the CSAA and it would be nice to here what you think about it, it is something you use and like ?

Reading that it will have a great impact on performace. that you get 16 AA for just a little over 4 MSAA and that seems really nice :)
The only downside seems to be that it wont affect shadows/shadow map if i understand it corectly!

retsam
02-10-07, 03:09 PM
welcome to the board, i dont have one of those cards yet( im waiting for r600) but i hear its really nice ....

SwedX
02-10-07, 05:46 PM
welcome to the board, i dont have one of those cards yet( im waiting for r600) but i hear its really nice ....

Thanks for the welcome Retsam.

I think that the r600 will be a very great card and I was thinking of that myself but I feel I cant wait any longer as my card is getting very old :)

ATOJAR
02-10-07, 06:44 PM
I mostly play BF2142, i am forcing atrophic filtering & anti-aliasing both to 16x and afew other settings, the game looks amazing.... runs sweet as hell. :captnkill:

I see your jumping from a 6800GT to a 8800GTX :D ..... man are you in for a sweet surprise lol.

kevJ420
02-10-07, 08:27 PM
it sucks, to put it bluntly. i'm glad someone asked. it is definately not a performance-decreasing feature at all, but they definately should have done what i think is the best which is 4x RGSS and doubled or tripled that for transparent textures, and no color compression or at least not forced, and no gamma aa or at least optional and not forced.
here's why i think csaa sucks:
it doesn't eliminate much aliasing at all, it can't aa shader aliasing, and it really isn't good at the only thing it does aa, which is edges and lines. finally, it doesn't work with all games and some of the games it works w/ it's erratic. the aa method i mentioned, would work with all games, and it would look the best by far; @ 1280x960, the geometry would be pretty much perfect, and then when you use a real high resolution (1920x1200 or higher) w/ that method, then aliasing would be pretty much unnoticable (although of course you'd still need the unoptimised af aka High Quality.)
and to amplify my point that it would work with every game, that means it will work w/ splinter cell chaos theory and hdr w/ no problems whatsoever, no patch, no update to the game needed whatsoever. same goes for oblivion+hdr, and rainbow 6 vegas would work with it, no problems at all.

***the RGSS would AA shadows as well! i forgot to mention that***

|MaguS|
02-10-07, 08:29 PM
Aliasing is very noticable for me at 1920x1200 and 16xAA helps ALOT.... I think you just need to get your eyes checked. CAA is awsome and im glad they added that feature. You just need to get off the case of RGSS, no one cares honestly...

aweigh0101
02-10-07, 09:34 PM
CSAA sucks. Just crap NVIDIA added to fool more people into buying their cards.

SwedX
02-11-07, 06:35 AM
Yepp i think upgrade from my old 6800GT to this 8800GTX monster will be a real chock and I cant wait :)

So some like the CSAA and some not...to bad it only AA edges and lines and not the rest but I gues some sacrifices have to come when it only is as taxing or some more then 4msaa..

Thanks for the reply guys and I relly cant wait for my new toy to arrive..hopefully gonna be in gaming Nirvana :)

nIghtorius
02-11-07, 08:34 AM
Yepp i think upgrade from my old 6800GT to this 8800GTX monster will be a real chock and I cant wait :)

So some like the CSAA and some not...to bad it only AA edges and lines and not the rest but I gues some sacrifices have to come when it only is as taxing or some more then 4msaa..

Thanks for the reply guys and I relly cant wait for my new toy to arrive..hopefully gonna be in gaming Nirvana :)

what to expect from a 8800GTX.

http://phibiansoft.net/files/oblivion192012008qaa16aftaa.png

oblivion screenshot (1920x1200 8qAA 16AF with TAA) @ very playable framerate with single GTX :afro2:

SwedX
02-11-07, 12:28 PM
what to expect from a 8800GTX.

http://phibiansoft.net/files/oblivion192012008qaa16aftaa.png

oblivion screenshot (1920x1200 8qAA 16AF with TAA) @ very playable framerate with single GTX :afro2:

OMG that is sweet!

Wonderful totaly insane...have checked out the pics from the 8800 thread on this site and I cant belive what I am seeing :D

And im thinking of buying 2 of this cards and go SLI for the first time in my life hehe.

kevJ420
02-11-07, 12:56 PM
16x csaa makes a difference, but not nearly as much as rgss. everybody does care about 3dfx's method, technically, b/c people want aa w/ splinter cell chaos thery and hdr, and 3dfx's method is the only way possible to have aa work with every game, and look the best. it's a shame that people love csaa so much, because 3dfx's aa method was so much better, and there's now more processing power than ever, so performance shouldn't be an issue and even if it is, there could be the choice between cssa and a choice for 4xRGSS w/ double or triple for transparent textures and no color compression, and optional, not forced gamma aa.

Madpistol
02-11-07, 02:21 PM
I upgraded from a 6800 GT to an 8800 GTX. It's an extraordinary leap in performance and visual quality.

I played BF2142 on my old rig which was a 2.8Ghz P4, 2GB PC3200, 6800 GT, and Sound blaster Audigy 2 ZS. On that system, I averaged between 20 and 30 fps on medium settings @ 1024x768. Sometimes, it dropped into the low teens during heavy firefights.

With my new rig (the one in my sig), I'm running 1600x1200, maxed settings (4xaa, 16xaf), and I average about 70fps or higher in Titan mode. In conquest, 90fps is the norm. Even in heavy firefights, it very rarely drops below 60fps, and if it does, it's not even noticable.

The 8800 GTX is a powerhouse card. I definately recommend Getting it.

rhink
02-11-07, 05:09 PM
16x csaa makes a difference, but not nearly as much as rgss. everybody does care about 3dfx's method, technically, b/c people want aa w/ splinter cell chaos thery and hdr, and 3dfx's method is the only way possible to have aa work with every game, and look the best. it's a shame that people love csaa so much, because 3dfx's aa method was so much better, and there's now more processing power than ever, so performance shouldn't be an issue and even if it is, there could be the choice between cssa and a choice for 4xRGSS w/ double or triple for transparent textures and no color compression, and optional, not forced gamma aa.

Sure, figure out a way around the massive performance hit of supersampling and everyone will use it. Until then, it's pretty much worthless. You do realize that 4x supersampling takes four times the shader processing power for a given resolution, whereas 4x multisampling doesn't take any whatsoever?

Anyways you're railing on multisampling in general, when the question was more about how much 16x CSAA improves things over conventional 4x MSAA.

I don't think 8800 drivers still support it, but you can fire up legacy AA modes with a 7900 (4x OGSS) and see for yourself how brutal the performance hit is.

SwedX
02-11-07, 06:51 PM
I upgraded from a 6800 GT to an 8800 GTX. It's an extraordinary leap in performance and visual quality.

I played BF2142 on my old rig which was a 2.8Ghz P4, 2GB PC3200, 6800 GT, and Sound blaster Audigy 2 ZS. On that system, I averaged between 20 and 30 fps on medium settings @ 1024x768. Sometimes, it dropped into the low teens during heavy firefights.

With my new rig (the one in my sig), I'm running 1600x1200, maxed settings (4xaa, 16xaf), and I average about 70fps or higher in Titan mode. In conquest, 90fps is the norm. Even in heavy firefights, it very rarely drops below 60fps, and if it does, it's not even noticable.

The 8800 GTX is a powerhouse card. I definately recommend Getting it.

Have read so many reviews of the 8800 series so I know im in for a chock and that is precisely what i need right now.

The bad frames and IQ the 6800 can handle really starts to killing me hehe..so it will be a nice upgrade and to have two of em then I can sleep easy and now im all ready for the Dx10 future :D

Uberpwnage
02-11-07, 08:28 PM
what to expect from a 8800GTX.

http://phibiansoft.net/files/oblivion192012008qaa16aftaa.png

oblivion screenshot (1920x1200 8qAA 16AF with TAA) @ very playable framerate with single GTX :afro2:
lol 704fps(bs)

kevJ420
02-11-07, 10:16 PM
Sure, figure out a way around the massive performance hit of supersampling and everyone will use it. Until then, it's pretty much worthless. You do realize that 4x supersampling takes four times the shader processing power for a given resolution, whereas 4x multisampling doesn't take any whatsoever?

Anyways you're railing on multisampling in general, when the question was more about how much 16x CSAA improves things over conventional 4x MSAA.

I don't think 8800 drivers still support it, but you can fire up legacy AA modes with a 7900 (4x OGSS) and see for yourself how brutal the performance hit is.

thanks for not bashing me. anyways i definately realise 3dfx's method (OGss kind of sucks compared to rgss, but it looks ok) would cut performance into 1/6 maybe, but there's things to consider about that:
they could offer a choice for both
they could implement 3dfx's method with sli only.
a lot of games would be perfectly playable w/ 1/4 the performance of sli, at least w/ dual 8800gtx's. and then there's games that are extremely cpu limited.
finally, there is an article that has benchmarks showing that the voodoo5 6000 (meant to be 3dfx's flagship product for it's time) had high framerates w/ even 4x of their method, and those results could be about 33% less and performance would be fine. it's very possible you have seen it. thanks for the tip, but i wish nhancer would allow 4x RGSS mode and an 8x RGSS mode. i also think it could use quite a few more options, if the hardware can do them, i don't know what all of the features removed from the 8 series hardware were and i don't know all of the features that are in hardware, i just hope there's a lot of good features not yet exposed that will maker older games enjoyable, b/c so far other than the perfect unoptimised af at hq setting, the 8800gtx has been a real disappointment for me, since i'm not really all that exuberant about the extra performance. i'm waiting for the next version of nhancer, nervously, and with high hopes. of course ati will be even farther from what i want.

SwedX
02-12-07, 05:56 AM
thanks for not bashing me. anyways i definately realise 3dfx's method (OGss kind of sucks compared to rgss, but it looks ok) would cut performance into 1/6 maybe, but there's things to consider about that:
they could offer a choice for both
they could implement 3dfx's method with sli only.
a lot of games would be perfectly playable w/ 1/4 the performance of sli, at least w/ dual 8800gtx's. and then there's games that are extremely cpu limited.
finally, there is an article that has benchmarks showing that the voodoo5 6000 (meant to be 3dfx's flagship product for it's time) had high framerates w/ even 4x of their method, and those results could be about 33% less and performance would be fine. it's very possible you have seen it. thanks for the tip, but i wish nhancer would allow 4x RGSS mode and an 8x RGSS mode. i also think it could use quite a few more options, if the hardware can do them, i don't know what all of the features removed from the 8 series hardware were and i don't know all of the features that are in hardware, i just hope there's a lot of good features not yet exposed that will maker older games enjoyable, b/c so far other than the perfect unoptimised af at hq setting, the 8800gtx has been a real disappointment for me, since i'm not really all that exuberant about the extra performance. i'm waiting for the next version of nhancer, nervously, and with high hopes. of course ati will be even farther from what i want.

Maybe ATI's R600 will implement a mode or similar to that RGSS AA who knows.

Can understand why you would like that, as you say it should work perfectly with every games and that would be really nice. no more that game dont work and all the trouble to maybe get some AA to work and have everything shaders map and every triangle AA will be the perfect picture.

To bad that the performance hit is so bad with supersampling but why not have such a mode for SLI as you said..

kevJ420
02-12-07, 06:14 PM
thanks swedX (i hope i wrote that right) I really appreciate it. and also i really appreciate everyone else's reply.

rhink
02-12-07, 08:02 PM
stuff

True OGSS doesn't look as good as RGSS, but the performance hit is going to be similar. NVIDIA's design isn't going to allow for straight up RGSS without spending some transistors on it, so the best you can hope for is legacy OGSS or some hybrid MS/SS mode, like 4xS, 8xS.

I still tend to think the cost isn't worth the gains you'll get. MS is so much easier to optimize, it's just so much faster you can still run at high resolution/high AA modes without losing much performance, and with high quality texture filtering implementations, the difference between the modes shouldn't be all that huge (though 6800/7800 series aniso modes leave something to be desired). At the resolutions a lot of people tend to buy SLI to support (very high res panels), I think even 8800 GTX SLI might start running into performance issues with 4x supersampling. If you're limited by pixel shading power, take the AA off mode, and divide the framerates by 4, that's about what you'll get.

I suppose we may be approaching the day when we have so much shading power there's no reason not to do supersampling, but so far developers have been pretty good at using up shader power available to them. 8800's are ahead of the curve for the moment, but I doubt it'll be all that long before developers catch up to it.

SwedX
02-13-07, 05:54 AM
thanks swedX (i hope i wrote that right) I really appreciate it. and also i really appreciate everyone else's reply.

Thanks yourself mate and thanks to everyvone responded on this thread.
Nice to here what you pros like and dont like :)

fivefeet8
02-13-07, 11:49 AM
it sucks, to put it bluntly. i'm glad someone asked. it is definately not a performance-decreasing feature at all, but they definately should have done what i think is the best which is 4x RGSS and doubled or tripled that for transparent textures, and no color compression or at least not forced, and no gamma aa or at least optional and not forced.
here's why i think csaa sucks:
it doesn't eliminate much aliasing at all, it can't aa shader aliasing, and it really isn't good at the only thing it does aa, which is edges and lines. finally, it doesn't work with all games and some of the games it works w/ it's erratic. the aa method i mentioned, would work with all games, and it would look the best by far; @ 1280x960, the geometry would be pretty much perfect, and then when you use a real high resolution (1920x1200 or higher) w/ that method, then aliasing would be pretty much unnoticable (although of course you'd still need the unoptimised af aka High Quality.)
and to amplify my point that it would work with every game, that means it will work w/ splinter cell chaos theory and hdr w/ no problems whatsoever, no patch, no update to the game needed whatsoever. same goes for oblivion+hdr, and rainbow 6 vegas would work with it, no problems at all.



Pure 4xRG Super Sampling AA would be horrendously slow on modern games like the one's you mentioned. Not to mention, it would blur the whole scene like with Quincunx AA, Hybrid SS/MS, and Pure SS modes in older Nvidia hardware. I can see a use for it in older games where performance is already very high, but in games like Oblivion, super sampling would hurt more than it would fix things.

It would have the best edge aliasing removal, but it's performance deficit and noticeable scene blurring would be it's achilles heel. Of course the blurring does help in other aspects of gaming. ;)

If you want high quality AA, you can still use the HQ AA modes. Even there though, the performance penalty for 16xHQ MSAA(8xMSAA pure + CSAA) is drastic compared to the 16xCSAA mode. 8xHQ MSAA is a bit more usable, but still slower than 16xCSAA. Also, both HQ modes do AA stencil Shadows. Super High(1600x1200 and above) resolutions are dealt with a lot better with the CSAA modes as they give the best compromise between IQ and performance in those situations currently.

SwedX
02-13-07, 01:38 PM
Pure 4xRG Super Sampling AA would be horrendously slow on modern games like the one's you mentioned. Not to mention, it would blur the whole scene like with Quincunx AA, Hybrid SS/MS, and Pure SS modes in older Nvidia hardware. I can see a use for it in older games where performance is already very high, but in games like Oblivion, super sampling would hurt more than it would fix things.

It would have the best edge aliasing removal, but it's performance deficit and noticeable scene blurring would be it's achilles heel. Of course the blurring does help in other aspects of gaming. ;)

If you want high quality AA, you can still use the HQ AA modes. Even there though, the performance penalty for 16xHQ MSAA(8xMSAA pure + CSAA) is drastic compared to the 16xCSAA mode. 8xHQ MSAA is a bit more usable, but still slower than 16xCSAA. Also, both HQ modes do AA stencil Shadows. Super High(1600x1200 and above) resolutions are dealt with a lot better with the CSAA modes as they give the best compromise between IQ and performance in those situations currently.

Will be nice to test out the different modes when my new toy arrive!

CSAA seems to be a really great AA mode to have..

The test here on techreport he relly loves it :)

"Quote"
To my eye, CSAA works, and works well. In fact, 16xQ looks no more effective to me than the 16X mode, despite having twice as many stored color and Z samples. You can see direct comparisons of all of the G80's modes to the G71 and R580+ in the larger image comparison table on the next page, but first, let's look at how CSAA impacts performance.

http://techreport.com/reviews/2006q4/geforce-8800/index.x?pg=7

nIghtorius
02-13-07, 02:10 PM
lol 704fps(bs)

lol. Don't mind the 704... fraps went crazy on me when I took that screenshot.. it's around 40 fps.

rhink
02-13-07, 05:23 PM
Pure 4xRG Super Sampling AA would be horrendously slow on modern games like the one's you mentioned. Not to mention, it would blur the whole scene like with Quincunx AA, Hybrid SS/MS, and Pure SS modes in older Nvidia hardware. I can see a use for it in older games where performance is already very high, but in games like Oblivion, super sampling would hurt more than it would fix things.

It would have the best edge aliasing removal, but it's performance deficit and noticeable scene blurring would be it's achilles heel. Of course the blurring does help in other aspects of gaming. ;)

If you want high quality AA, you can still use the HQ AA modes. Even there though, the performance penalty for 16xHQ MSAA(8xMSAA pure + CSAA) is drastic compared to the 16xCSAA mode. 8xHQ MSAA is a bit more usable, but still slower than 16xCSAA. Also, both HQ modes do AA stencil Shadows. Super High(1600x1200 and above) resolutions are dealt with a lot better with the CSAA modes as they give the best compromise between IQ and performance in those situations currently.


SS shouldn't blur the scene. Quincunx was a multisampling mode that overfiltered the scene (2x AA with a 5 tap filter) that very definitely did blur the scene to improve edge quality, at the cost of a bit of blurriness overall.

fivefeet8
02-13-07, 06:02 PM
SS shouldn't blur the scene. Quincunx was a multisampling mode that overfiltered the scene (2x AA with a 5 tap filter) that very definitely did blur the scene to improve edge quality, at the cost of a bit of blurriness overall.

Super Sampling from the Voodoo 5 does blur the scene and any of the Mixed or Pure Super Sampling modes with an Nvidia card. The 3dfx voodoo 5 SSAA was well known to blur the whole scene. It actually came in handy for PSX emulation where the blurring actually helped 2d games. ;) Super Sampling is capable of AA'ing Alpha TExtures, but that's been mostly fixed with Transparency AA on modern Nvidia cards.