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View Full Version : fog issues aren't valve's or nvidia's fault.


kevJ420
02-15-07, 09:24 PM
***edit: The 96.89 drivers have the issue. But i hope that there are several fog types and that they'll eventually allow you the choice or hopefully enhancer will. But it's possible that the 8800 series only fog mode is the one that matches the reference rasteriser, and that is among the greatest fears of my life. I'd kind of think it would be great if the nhancer guy is looking into this. he could give choice for different fog modes, or no fog at all, provided the ref rast fog is not the only fog type the 8 series has transistors for. i hope it has transistors for all of the fog types since the tnt2 and we just haven't been given the choice yet.***

microsoft influenced nvidia to use the new fog that looks terrible and causes all of those issues w/ source and other games. i'm probably not the 1st to say this, but if more people say this then they'll quit blaming nvidia and valve.

the 96 series drivers are the last time anyone is going to see medium quality fog (back in the day the fog was better than medium quality or there was none... except on the n64); so... with 97.xx drivers and onward it's all downhill from there. [i was hoping for driver options for fog type but i don't think that's going to happen. i want to die (now) b/c of this fog plus more.

evidence:

1. microsoft's reference rasterizer uses this fog so now everyone will.
2. the ms dx10 demo as of late that looks worse than i do, has the same fog covering up the 2nd rock, just like in half life 2, and all i can say is that rock (and sm4.0 and older games even) need/s a w-buffer or equivalent, b/c dx10 doesn't recreate/portray 3d space very well. The 2nd rock doesn't look like it's in the right position or something like that.
3. sm4.0 is reducing quality in other ways such as 10:11 bit hdr(LDR)/RT formats which is less than sm3.0's fp16 blending. i hope nvidia will use their open EXR's fp32 format w/ all games, filtered and uncompressed. but i wouldn't be surprised if ati actually drops the fp16 (w/o filtering ain't any good) they have w/ r500 and only offer sm4.0's low precision rt formats for r600 and probably compressed and maybe even unfiltered. i think nvidia's about to have a pretty damn big advantage, but it would be an even bigger advantage if they let you choose the fog you prefer.

Q
02-15-07, 09:26 PM
So did you boil up this conspiracy all by yourself, or do you have some evidence?

At the very least, make us a pretty timeline with screenshots.

sammy sung
02-15-07, 09:34 PM
So did you boil up this conspiracy all by yourself, or do you have some evidence?

At the very least, make us a pretty timeline with screenshots.

Anyone seen on the grassy knoll on this one ?

|MaguS|
02-15-07, 09:45 PM
This wouldn't be an issue if Nvidia used 4xRGSS!

kevJ420
02-16-07, 03:34 PM
This wouldn't be an issue if Nvidia used 4xRGSS!
and of course no color compression and optional not forced gamma aa. but anyways, the fog issue is something everyone seems to care about even though most people are satisfied with the aa how it currently is.

J-Mag
02-16-07, 03:52 PM
This wouldn't be an issue if Nvidia used 4xRGSS!

:lol2:

rhink
02-16-07, 05:50 PM
and of course no color compression and optional not forced gamma aa. but anyways, the fog issue is something everyone seems to care about even though most people are satisfied with the aa how it currently is.

What exactly is the problem with using lossless color compression? It just speeds up rendering for no loss in quality.

kevJ420
02-16-07, 07:05 PM
What exactly is the problem with using lossless color compression? It just speeds up rendering for no loss in quality.
compatibility issues, and also a rather slight difference in the image quality, just the overall image, but it is hard to notice, but not impossible. try forcing any aa mode in the driver, and then look at the game, and stare at it for a little while. then exit the game, turn the aa off, and then stare at the same image of the game for a while. no compression is 100% lossless, but it does say it is, possibly b/c ati started using it w/ the 9700 pro and they claimed it was lossless, so if they claimed it was then i guess nvidia could claim the same thing starting w/ it's intro to nvidia hardware in the geforce fx. any compression of that nature is unnecessary for me, just my opinion, i am in the minority about frame rates. i'm sure most agree with you. but i would like the option to disable it w/ control panel aa. and texture compression makes me want to die sometimes as well. i want a control panel option to disable it globally. i just hate the blotchy skies and tiling, in my opinion it's not worth any performance gain. it allows the use of higher-res textures though, b/c hardware really can't store 8 simultaneous 8kx8k textures in ram. but 8192x8192 is too big anyway, because the output will limit it anyway. although that's not entirely right to say, because internal rendering actually counts more than output, look at the difference between ps2.0 and ps1.1. however, that doesn't excuse the fact that there hasn't yet been anything available to the early-adopter than can display 48bpp x RGB + 16 bpp alpha output. we've been at 24 bit (+8bit alpha) for years. but higher outputs will occur someday.

Xion X2
02-16-07, 07:25 PM
I heard the fog is really due to a bad can of frank & beans that Bill Gates had a month or two ago.

Take that for what it's worth, but I have my sources.

kevJ420
02-16-07, 07:38 PM
I heard the fog is really due to a bad can of frank & beans that Bill Gates had a month or two ago.

Take that for what it's worth, but I have my sources.

that was funny as ****. but i think you're really my high school teacher. or someone else that knows me and knew that i thought it would be funny. thanks for the joke.

J-Mag
02-16-07, 07:40 PM
compatibility issues, and also a rather slight difference in the image quality, just the overall image, but it is hard to notice, but not impossible. try forcing any aa mode in the driver, and then look at the game, and stare at it for a little while. then exit the game, turn the aa off, and then stare at the same image of the game for a while. no compression is 100% lossless, but it does say it is, possibly b/c ati started using it w/ the 9700 pro and they claimed it was lossless, so if they claimed it was then i guess nvidia could claim the same thing starting w/ it's intro to nvidia hardware in the geforce fx. any compression of that nature is unnecessary for me, just my opinion, i am in the minority about frame rates. i'm sure most agree with you. but i would like the option to disable it w/ control panel aa. and texture compression makes me want to die sometimes as well. i want a control panel option to disable it globally. i just hate the blotchy skies and tiling, in my opinion it's not worth any performance gain. it allows the use of higher-res textures though, b/c hardware really can't store 8 simultaneous 8kx8k textures in ram. but 8192x8192 is too big anyway, because the output will limit it anyway. although that's not entirely right to say, because internal rendering actually counts more than output, look at the difference between ps2.0 and ps1.1. however, that doesn't excuse the fact that there hasn't yet been anything available to the early-adopter than can display 48bpp x RGB + 16 bpp alpha output. we've been at 24 bit (+8bit alpha) for years. but higher outputs will occur someday.

The is your friend.

rhink
02-17-07, 02:24 AM
no compression is 100% lossless

Bullcrap.

fivefeet8
02-17-07, 03:26 AM
Super Sampling AA modes work fine in Vista and 8800 cards. ;) Use nhancer and enable experimental modes. Performance hit with 16xSSAA is horrendous, but it seems to affect the AF level.

Here is a screen of what 4x4(16x) SSaa does to AF filtering when combined with 16xAF(HQ).

d3d AF tester
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/66/d3daftester13a200702170cm3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

kevJ420
02-17-07, 12:00 PM
thanks for the tip. i appreciate it greatly. and it's beyond our control, but it isn't quite 3dfx's aa, but i am on my way to trying it. highly appreciated

L33t Masta
02-17-07, 02:52 PM
microsoft influenced nvidia to use the new fog that looks terrible and causes all of those issues w/ source and other games. i'm probably not the 1st to say this, but if more people say this then they'll quit blaming nvidia and valve.

the 96 series drivers are the last time anyone is going to see medium quality fog (back in the day the fog was better than medium quality or there was none... except on the n64); so... with 97.xx drivers and onward it's all downhill from there. [i was hoping for driver options for fog type but i don't think that's going to happen. i want to die (now) b/c of this fog plus more.

evidence:

1. microsoft's reference rasterizer uses this fog so now everyone will.
2. the ms dx10 demo as of late that looks worse than i do, has the same fog covering up the 2nd rock, just like in half life 2, and all i can say is that rock (and sm4.0 and older games even) need/s a w-buffer or equivalent, b/c dx10 doesn't recreate/portray 3d space very well. The 2nd rock doesn't look like it's in the right position or something like that.
3. sm4.0 is reducing quality in other ways such as 10:11 bit hdr(LDR)/RT formats which is less than sm3.0's fp16 blending. i hope nvidia will use their open EXR's fp32 format w/ all games, filtered and uncompressed. but i wouldn't be surprised if ati actually drops the fp16 (w/o filtering ain't any good) they have w/ r500 and only offer sm4.0's low precision rt formats for r600 and probably compressed and maybe even unfiltered. i think nvidia's about to have a pretty damn big advantage, but it would be an even bigger advantage if they let you choose the fog you prefer.


Bull****.